Article on WinHoldEm Bot in Wired (link)

[BigF]

Wow...dude you are going to be called a dumbass/[censored] like 100000 times on this board.

[ QUOTE ]
I wish people (in general) would stop confusing a bot (an automated AI poker playing) with collusion.

I have no problem with bots playing poker (as long as it is following the T&C of the web site in question [and as long as it isn't run by the poker website in question!]) and wouldn't avoid a web site that allowed bots. If you look at the algorithms posted over at the winholdem site linked in this thread they are just a more computerish expression of the kind of strategy charts that serves a similar purpose the the strategy charts you can find in the sshe forum of 2+2 (something like the grid based ohgeetee's excel chart based on Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth). The bots in question are just running their algorithm.

I mean there is a market for some online video games where people (typically in developing countries) "farm" objects by following a strict script to earn the objects and these objects are then sold to third parties (in games like Ultima Online). Would you have a problem with a person devising this kind of strategy and then paying third world people to play poker online following some very well specified algorithmic strategy identical to the strategy that WinHoldEm does?

Collusion is a totally different beast and represents something that is against the rules in a way that is completely different than playing a sound strategy. By colluding and sharing cards or owning pieces of each other or manipulating pot sizes a person is not playing on the even playing field the bot (or farm of developing countries workers) is. But to collude one doesn't need a bot. You could use IM to communicate with a partner and collude that way. You could be a husband and wife playing in the same poker tournament in the same house and end up at the same final table able to see each other's screens. You could be a professional poker player with a serious percentage of one of the other pro players at the final 3 people left in a major poker tournament. Collusion both implicit and explicit is a problem.

Hence I think colluding is the problem win WinHoldEm and with the article and the big potential problem for poker (live and online). I think non-cheating bots are a distraction from that issue and are not a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jmrogers7]

Ok. This article got my ire up. So, I went to the winholdem site and started reading. Obviously, Party Poker can detect the software and take whatever action it deems necessary to combat it.

The winholdem site outlines what needs to be done to avoid detection. It tells users to use 2 PCs and run WinPP. However, it states that unless you install the Party software under a restricted account, Party can still detect the winpush.exe executable for the remote computer. They tell you to get around this by creating a restricted account and installing the Party software under that.

That being said, couldn't Party just make it so that only the Administrator account can install their software? Yes, I understand that this could present problems for less savvy PC users. However, the majority of people running windows are most likely running Windows under the Administrator account anyway.

I know there is software that will not install unless you are running as Administrator. I realize there may be some issues with this but it seems that this would be a valid step for Party and any other poker site to take in the prevention and detection of winholdem.

Just a thought.

[hecubus]

I don't play at Party, but I've heard they've already implemented Captcha authentication software to make sure a human is behind the player, and I'm sure other online gaming sites are not far behind, as of course it would be in their best interest to do so.

Most already have security measures in place, like mouse heuristics, etc. to combat these cheaters. I am 100% confident that the days are numbered for programs like WinHoldem.

[Instyle007]

This guy is a piece of crap, former realtimegaming employee. Kinda makes them look bad.

Found the following at http://onlinepokersites.bravehost.co...r_cheats.html:

Name : Ray Edward Bornert II
Address : 4143 Red Laurel Way
City/State/Zip : Snellville, GA 30039
Phone Home : 770-736-7870
Phone Fax : 770-736-7890
Phone Mobile : 770-309-7870
E-Mail : ray.bornert@hixoxih.com
DOB : 1961-OCT-02
Family : Wife & Two Children

[hecubus]

Another one bites the dust [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Olin]

have you ever bought a computer poker game that you could not beat, I never have. I can not immagine that it has any more technolgy then the top poker computer games. I believe playing real people is much harder then a computer game.

* * *

Edit/MH: This thread has been bumped from the middle of last year by one-post Olin. I think it's obvious why, and I have locked the thread so it can drift back into obscurity, where it belongs. If anyone has legitimate cause to refer to this thread, please feel free to make a new post and link to the thread.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe playing real people is much harder then a computer game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Chess.

[POKhER]

"The data is put into memory and analyzed according to the player's formula set. Each action - calling, raising, going all-in - is controlled by a series of yes-no formulas."

I reckon it'll get raped at 6max games.... but maybe i'm wrong.

I'd say couldnt poker sites monitor CPU activity but with PT and PA about, we'd all get screwed over. I guess we're semi bots... Sure we make the decisions, but a few of them are based on what PT/PA says. We'd never remember all that information playing guys "normally".

[BlackRain]

I was kind of stunned when I clicked that link and found a fairly sizeable forum with so many people dedicated to what seems to amount to outright cheating. Disturbing what some people will lower themselves to.

However, it appears that these "bots" are still in their infancy and I haven't seen any compelling information to prove that they will ever be bigtime winners in high stakes poker. Furthermore, the counter measures taken by the various sites I suspect will be fierce.

What I was really wondering is why these guys talk about the code and anti detection methods etc. on a public forum where anyone can browse as a guest? Surely every major site has eyes and ears on a forum like this, and get free information on everything they do! Tantamount to showing your cards every hand? These are supposed to be intelligent scheming nerds...

[evil twin]

[ QUOTE ]
Chess.

[/ QUOTE ]
Chess is a game of complete information, poker is not. This makes things very different for the purposes of writing a computer program.

These bots don't worry me in the slightest. As has been stated before, the online sites are going to make sure their games are not compromised. They will do this because if they don't they will lose money. With the exact code being discussed on the bot-boards it's going to be trivial for the poker sites to detect the people playing in a prescribed bot-like manner.

I doubt they are doing this yet though, the bots are so bad that it's just not a problem. I'd be 100% happy to sit at a table with 9 other of these bot players with their silly little formulas. I have no doubt whatsoever that I would have a large edge. Perhaps in time this will change, but as things move forward the gaming sites will have better countermeasures in place.