I dont know how to play mid pairs

[tannenj]

i can't believe i'm actually going to argue about this right now in light of what's happening.

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I'm not killian, but I completely disagree. It's a difficult hand to play, and it's asking too much of him to create every possible scenario and how to play it. This hand has alot of things to consider when not playing strictly for set value.

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i'm not asking for every possible scenario. how about ONE scenario?

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This makes no sense at all. So against worse opponents you make LESS money with TT????

And how is TT a bluff? You have a premium hand. You reraised. Where is the bluff?

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this makes a ton of sense actually, you're just looking at it too simplistically. i'm not denying that you usually have the best hand preflop. what i'm saying is that if you reraise preflop, you will almost never get to showdown and win *against the average 200 NL player.*

[SEABEAST]

If he raises liberally preflop, re-raise. If not, just calling is fine.

If he c-bets a lot, check-raise flop or check-call lead turn. If he doesn't c-bet that much, lead flop (worse hands will call).

As played I like a turn lead as you still have the best hand most of the time but you don't want to see another card or give villain incentive to bluff you off the best hand.

[Toyboy]

Good post. A couple of quick thoughts:
*RR against liberal raisers, particularly weak ones.
Cbet any flop if called.
*RR against nits. For fold equity, Shut down if called.
*RR if stacks are shallow (say 30-40bb). Just get in enough pf (say 20bb) that you dont have to worry too much about postflop (usually push).
*RR against calling stations; they won't bet you off your hand, so start building the pot in case we hit. Bet "safe" flops, otherwise call/fold depending on board, reads etc.
*Against good TAGs/LAGs I don't mind a call (playing mainly for set value) as we're OOP and don't want to play a big pot against them. C/R some safe flops (depending on reads etc).

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If he raises liberally preflop, re-raise. If not, just calling is fine.

If he c-bets a lot, check-raise flop or check-call lead turn. If he doesn't c-bet that much, lead flop (worse hands will call).

As played I like a turn lead as you still have the best hand most of the time but you don't want to see another card or give villain incentive to bluff you off the best hand.

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[2Paul2]

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still pretty hungover, so maybe I'll chime in a bit more tomorrow or later today, but

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What does "Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop."
Even mean?

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what that means is that if you see a showdown with TT in a rr pot UI 0% of the time, then it is essentially a bluff. The value of the cards mean nothing (except that you can flop a set 1 in 8 times). Un fact, its not just about getting to sohwdown, we have to get to showdown, UI AND WIN over 0% of the time, or our hand is a bluff.

Now my problem is that whenI rr TT preflop (especially OOP) I get to showdown UI and win just about never. If you are some1 who CAN get to showdown and win UI often, then rr is ofc fine, but thats just not me (and I suspect not a lot of players here either)

FWIW, I'm not playing TT for set value, I'll continue most the time even when it hasnt flopped a set and I'm not just rr JJ+/AK. I'd a lot rather reraise a hand like 67s that has a lot less showdown value.


Hince,

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It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)

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Yes, but we don't know his exact range of hands. Obv we are ahead of his range, but just because you are ahead of some1s range, doesn't mean raising is best and in fact if you are only slightly ahead of some1s range, it could be that raising is -EV

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I think it should be a rr. I also think you can get to showdown w/ it.

Couple of eg's:

Taggish player raises, you rr flop comes 279, you bet and get called, turn J goes check check, river J goes check check and villain shows 66. I see this tons every day.

sLAG opens in co who is known to float and call rr:s light and you rr, flop 5c6c5 bet call, turn 2s you c/r all in he calls w/77/68s because he's 'pot commited'.

I also think wanting to repop w/7 high rather than TT oop against your typical ssnl player seems a bit silly to me when there weaknesses are generally being too loose and not folding enough post flop.

Co has to be really tight in this situation for the rr not to be for value. Just because there are situations like the ones you outline where you may end up c/f:ing doesn't mean there aren't spots where you do get to showdown or even stack villain unimproved.

Paul

[Hince]

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this makes a ton of sense actually, you're just looking at it too simplistically. i'm not denying that you usually have the best hand preflop. what i'm saying is that if you reraise preflop, you will almost never get to showdown and win *against the average 200 NL player.*

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I don't understand your point. Do you have to get to showdown to win money?

You agree we usually have the best hand preflop, so raising and getting more money in is greater EV than calling. It is irrelevant if you get to showdown. If you win on the flop you win more if you raise preflop than if you just called preflop.

I'm not looking at this to simplistically, my point is you are building a pot with a good hand. That is only one reason to raise. I really don't see how you consider this a bluff.

[royalsu]

Leading the flop is fine if you're willing to play this hand for stacks and if you sometimes smooth call AA KK preflop and he's seen you do it.
Otherwise, it's obvious you either have an overpair smaller than JJ or a flush draw (assuming your preflop rr range is tight). Since there is a limper in this hand, it is very very likely that this is a position raise which increases villain's range. I've done this with anything from 56 unsuited, KT suited, Ax-suited, depending on my mood. But, with 2 callers, I'm only betting that flop with any pair or a flush/gut/straight draw. A turn check is therefore suicidal for you, since if I had a flush/straight draw, I may check that turn fearing the check raise. Then if a scare card hits, you're forced to make a pot sized tough call on the river, or worse, a raise.

As played, you HAVE to lead the turn...but your best option is a check check or check fold.

[Kilillan]

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what that means is that if you see a showdown with TT in a rr pot UI 0% of the time, then it is essentially a bluff. The value of the cards mean nothing (except that you can flop a set 1 in 8 times). Un fact, its not just about getting to sohwdown, we have to get to showdown, UI AND WIN over 0% of the time, or our hand is a bluff.


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This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You don't have to get to showdown to win the hand.

Let's say you're holding AKs in this situation, insta-reraise right? What if you were on the button?

How often do you get to showdown unimproved and win with AK? And yet it's my third biggest winner below AA and KK.

The rank of your hand is just one factor in many in determining these kinds of decisions, people call reraises all the time with Axs or small pairs and check/fold any flop where they miss. There's also nothing wrong with betting the flop and giving up on the hand.

I'll post more insight after I stop tilting from this online ban thing

[djoyce003]

Killian,

I think what he's saying is that 'generally' the hands that call a reraise are at least coin flipping with TT on average. It's either big cards like AK, or big pairs JJ+. Throw in a few smaller pairs 99- that might also call the reraise in hopes of spiking a set and your TT against that range is probably pretty close to a coin flip but slightly ahead. Any hands that tend to call these reraises and then call a post flop bet, are probably now ahead of your tens.

Now, on a flop of 972 rainbow, you fire off a PSB and get called....where are you? Are you still ahead, or are you now behind. On a flop of Axx rainbow, you fire off a PSB and get called, are you still ahead? Any bet you make after getting called on the A high flop is probably a bluff, wouldn't you agree as his most likely hand is a pair of aces? On the 972 flop, the range of hands that call additional bets are roughly 50/50 to be beating you, (a set, or a bigger pair than tens offset by a few small pockets that put you on whiffed overs) However, even on the 972 flop, if that goes to showdown, there's almost no way your tens are good unless you have the good fortune to be playing against a total donkey calling station. Even bad players aren't calling big turn bets with 55 on 972x boards very often.

What he's acknowledging is that sure, you can win the hand without going to showdown....nobody disputes that. But once you reraise, the range of hands that calls gets much narrower, and if you get action post flop, it's likely because those hands have now passed up your tens and are in the lead.....now if you still win with your tens, it's because you bluffed them off of a better hand, not because you had the "best hand." In all likelihood, if the hand goes to showdown after an ace high flop, your tens aren't winning. Now against certain opponents, i'm more likely to reraise, and against others, i'm not. These factors are what turns the tens into a bluff. I don't think the reraise preflop is a "bluff", but anything post flop that's getting action is quite likely exactly that, and really needs to spike a ten, or get a fold to win the hand.

In the example given, I prefer leading out on the flop....and folding if I get any more action.

[Kilillan]

I think the problem is people are giving way too narrow a range for people's calling re-raising ranges. It's usually not AKs JJ+ in my experience. And if it is AKs JJ+ then reraise and check/fold any flop would be the ideal way to deal with it, I suppose.

But most TAGs and donks at this level will call it with hands as weak as AJo or any pair or suited connectors.

Then again I have a strong feeling I'm much much LAGier than most of the people in this thread, affecting how I deal with specific decisions.

Interesting discussion, I'll come back to it later.

[Iwineverypot]

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this makes a ton of sense actually, you're just looking at it too simplistically. i'm not denying that you usually have the best hand preflop. what i'm saying is that if you reraise preflop, you will almost never get to showdown and win *against the average 200 NL player.*

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I don't understand your point. Do you have to get to showdown to win money?

You agree we usually have the best hand preflop, so raising and getting more money in is greater EV than calling. It is irrelevant if you get to showdown. If you win on the flop you win more if you raise preflop than if you just called preflop.

I'm not looking at this to simplistically, my point is you are building a pot with a good hand. That is only one reason to raise. I really don't see how you consider this a bluff.

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I'm sick of this thread. You people on the above side of the debate simply dont understand what you are saying. Yes, you probably have the best hand preflop. But this is going into the same category as the following example I think everyone here can understand: Say you raise from the Button with AQo, a standard raise. BB calls you and the flop comes down Q 7 2 rainbow. BB leads for a PSB. Is there really that much value in raising this flop? There are no draws that you are trying to push out, this is a WA/WB situation. You're only getting called when you're beat(a decent player is folding weak Q's to a raise on this flop but definitely will pay you off on the next 2 streets if you keep him in the hand) but in general if BB keeps firing PSB's the best line would be to call(obviously there are situaitons where you would raise, but im just talking in general). The same thing goes for this situation. When you reraise PF with TT, you're folding out any hands you could extract value out of and you're only getting calls from hands that have you crushed or you're racing with. Basically you're hoping that you can take the pot with a cbet on the flop and be done with it, if you get raised on a flop with 2 overs you're going to have a hard time continuing. Basically when you reraise with TT the chance that you get to showdown and have the best hand is next to 0. So the point we are all trying to make is, your hand is completely irrelevant then. You could do the exact same move with 23o, you're not playing your own hand at this point you're just hoping you can force your opponent out. I do understand the case for reraising but seriously, if you do reraise this you really are hoping to take it down PF or on the flop, it is very unlikely you're going to get to showdown with this hand and be ahead.