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#41
08-21-2006, 12:27 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] and theres a huge difference between playing K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but if we have to discuss this issue, then its time to jump down to SS. [/ QUOTE ] The difference being that the 54s is better? [/ QUOTE ] I really hope not. [/ QUOTE ] You think there's a huge gap between the two here? I think with the 54s we're not going to run into nearly as many post-flop problems lkike having to call multiple bets with bad top pair etc and so on. In this spot, would you rather have KTs, 98s or 54s? 
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#42
08-21-2006, 01:30 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] and theres a huge difference between playing K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but if we have to discuss this issue, then its time to jump down to SS. [/ QUOTE ] The difference being that the 54s is better? [/ QUOTE ] I really hope not. [/ QUOTE ] You think there's a huge gap between the two here? I think with the 54s we're not going to run into nearly as many post-flop problems lkike having to call multiple bets with bad top pair etc and so on. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're right, but only because 54s is a lot less likely to be playable at all after it sees a flop, I wouldn't say that's a good thing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] In this spot, would you rather have KTs, 98s or 54s? [/ QUOTE ] I'm folding all 3 if it's 3 bets to me, but if I have to play one it would be close between KTs and 98s.
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#43
08-21-2006, 01:45 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] part of playing well post flop, and in games like this, is making the decision to play your hand in later streets, and the vulnerability of a hand like a K high flop! [/ QUOTE ] You don't make the decision on later streets. The pot will likely be between 20-25sb on the flop, making it correct to call with any piece of the flop. If you flopped a pair of kings and your opponent bets and flips up AK, folding would be a mistake. It will be correct to again call on the turn with just 3 outs if the pot is at least 15bb, which it will be. Of course on the river the pot will be so huge that unless your opponent actually did flip his cards up, even the best hand readers would be making a mistake to not see a showdown. I'm pretty sure that's the kind of situation bakku was referring to. Once you put in 3 bets with this hand preflop, you've committed yourself to paying off better hands very often, which is why I stated a long time ago that the point where you decide to fold should be preflop. [/ QUOTE ] Excellent post. I think you nailed it.
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#44
08-21-2006, 04:11 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
Just pointing out the obvious, while flopping a strong draw/two-pair or better is what we're looking for, they aren't as potent as some of you are saying when there is a raise and a re-raise.
If you flop a flush draw in this pot you could be up against the A of diamonds and lose an enormous pot, pumping tons of cash when you are drawing dead. KT only makes straights on the following flops AJQ where in a 3-bet flop you could easily have full house-redraws, and chop chop redraws. QJ9 where a T or K will give AK/AT a better straight, as well as being many full house re-draws. What if it's two suited of another suit? You're going to be paying some peeps off hard. Are you going to fold everytime you have TPGK in this bloated pot? People will likely raise hard with some marginal holdings (more so than yours) to protect the pot and it's going to be very difficult to know where you stand, even for someone who plays well post flop. Your pretty much always going to be peeling the flop if it doesnt get bombarded to hard, to at least draw to 2-pair. It's not an all powerful hand when it hits a flop, the implied odd just aren't there I think. We are all theorizing very adhoc when it comes to pre-flop situations like this though, im curious how one would go about a strong mathematical analysis of this. It's very difficult to nail down because there are just SOO many situatiosn that can occur, calculating implied odds for 3 streets, with multiple illogical opponents. But if you like to Gambool, it's probabily not that bad, so If you're a gambl0r, then go for it. I'd pass it up though as I suspect it's -EV and can do without the swings.
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#45
08-21-2006, 04:13 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] For me If it is going to be at least 5 ways everytime and 6 a lot I call with any pair any suited connector 54 and up [/ QUOTE ] Not sure if I like the idea of paying 3 bets preflop with speculative hands, especially if the players are semi-rational postflop. [/ QUOTE ] and theres a huge difference between playing K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but if we have to discuss this issue, then its time to jump down to SS. [/ QUOTE ] The difference being that the 54s is better? [/ QUOTE ] The 54 is hugely better and its not close.
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#46
08-21-2006, 04:15 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] and theres a huge difference between playing K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but if we have to discuss this issue, then its time to jump down to SS. [/ QUOTE ] The difference being that the 54s is better? [/ QUOTE ] I really hope not. [/ QUOTE ] You think there's a huge gap between the two here? I think with the 54s we're not going to run into nearly as many post-flop problems lkike having to call multiple bets with bad top pair etc and so on. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're right, but only because 54s is a lot less likely to be playable at all after it sees a flop, I wouldn't say that's a good thing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] In this spot, would you rather have KTs, 98s or 54s? [/ QUOTE ] I'm folding all 3 if it's 3 bets to me, but if I have to play one it would be close between KTs and 98s. [/ QUOTE ] In a 6 way 3 bet pot if you would rather have the k10s over the 98s your out of your mind.
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#47
08-21-2006, 04:18 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] For me If it is going to be at least 5 ways everytime and 6 a lot I call with any pair any suited connector 54 and up [/ QUOTE ] Not sure if I like the idea of paying 3 bets preflop with speculative hands, especially if the players are semi-rational postflop. [/ QUOTE ] There is no difference between 3 bets or 1 bet or 10 bets. With the 54s and the 89s are you afraid your going to make a pair and not have it hold up? Your either going to make 2 pair trips a straight or a flush or your not.
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#48
08-21-2006, 06:57 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] SB says, my 2 pair NG...weakie gives up and folds saying she had AQ. [/ QUOTE ] Did you remember to kick SB in the nuts after you were finished stacking his chips? [/ QUOTE ] LOL He was the guy in the other post that folded 2 pair or a set on the turn getting 17:1. He busted out a little while later. On another note, I did a couple of Poker Stoves on this and KTs has about a 11-12% equity PF vs. 6 other likely hands.
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#49
08-21-2006, 07:04 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
What bothers me is that the decent players raised--if it were the gamboolers who did the raising I'd play--KTs is a decent (not great) hand to play against gamboolers, but not against decent players who are 3-betting. The question is whether the players are loosening up their raising standards, though.
But I think you're going to be up against stuff that dominates your KT, and though being suited and having position mitigates it somewhat, I don't think there's enough equity or implied odds.
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#50
08-21-2006, 07:32 PM
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Re: Do you Gambool?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] For me If it is going to be at least 5 ways everytime and 6 a lot I call with any pair any suited connector 54 and up [/ QUOTE ] Not sure if I like the idea of paying 3 bets preflop with speculative hands, especially if the players are semi-rational postflop. [/ QUOTE ] There is no difference between 3 bets or 1 bet or 10 bets. With the 54s and the 89s are you afraid your going to make a pair and not have it hold up? Your either going to make 2 pair trips a straight or a flush or your not. [/ QUOTE ] Mike, would you rather have 98s in this spot than KQs? This is a serious question. Bob
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