Hand vs. Negreanu on Day 1C

[CieloAzor]

Ugh, Negreanu is a great player but he's not superhuman. He gets dealt the same cards as everybody else and has the same 3 options as everybody else. I think avoiding other players and refusing to get involved with them is the wrong way to play tournaments, unless you're just trying to cash (which is also the wrong way to play them).

If anybody thinks I should fold preflop because I'm out of position and I don't have enough chips to play creatively, that's a fairly accurate observation, and I appreciate the input. I don't think folding because I'm scared of another player should factor into the equation though. I'll get cute with anybody I want!

[betgo]

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Ugh, Negreanu is a great player but he's not superhuman. He gets dealt the same cards as everybody else and has the same 3 options as everybody else. I think avoiding other players and refusing to get involved with them is the wrong way to play tournaments, unless you're just trying to cash (which is also the wrong way to play them).

If anybody thinks I should fold preflop because I'm out of position and I don't have enough chips to play creatively, that's a fairly accurate observation, and I appreciate the input. I don't think folding because I'm scared of another player should factor into the equation though. I'll get cute with anybody I want!

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If you are going to get cute with Negreanu than you need to play better postflop. Flat calling with top pair and then folding to what was probably a play by Negreanu is not good.

You really don't have a hand here and you are out of position. It might be OK to call or raise if you were only against the player who may be weak/tight. However, what is the point of getting involved when Negreanu is going to over call. You may be able to outplay the raiser, but you can't outplay Negreanu.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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I am really suspicious of Negreanu's play and I think he is bluffing. First of all, the guy is playing practically every hand, presumably with the idea of stealing a lot of pots.

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just because he is playing practically every hand doesn't mean he is actually trying to steal every pot. OP is brand new to the table and is only getting this info through grumblings and innuendo, not first hand experience. i strongly think that the 100% comment is overstating it. while his bluffing frequency *probably* IS high here it is far from 100%.

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Secondly, while he could have a 5, since he would probably call with any two here, I don't think this is the way he would play a 5. The small checkraise is the way a weak player would play trips. Negreanu would probably lead out. If he checked, he would probably check/call, rather than make a reraise that looked like trips to make everyone fold. It seems like he is making a cheap attempt to steal the pot.

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have you played a lot with DN? how could you know all of this? why would you think he would lead rather than check when he knows a c-bet is coming? and if he checked and there was a bet and a call, just calling here with trips is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. what is he calling for? to let a flush draw in cheaply? to set up a checkraise on the turn when the likelyhood of action is decreased? checkraising is a perfectly fine and standard play here. i don't see why you would think only a weak player would do this.

also given DN's loose image and "trying to steal every pot" mode i think this actually a time where he would show a little more constraint in bluffing because it does look like he is bluffing and trying to win every pot.

[bpc009]

when someone presents a "what do I do NOW" situation, why do people find it necessary to talk about what they should have / could have done earlier in the hand?

Next, Cielo, are you going to tell us how this played out or what?

[CieloAzor]

I already did!

To make a long story short, I folded, Button claimed AK, DN claimed K5.

[betgo]

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I am really suspicious of Negreanu's play and I think he is bluffing. First of all, the guy is playing practically every hand, presumably with the idea of stealing a lot of pots.

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just because he is playing practically every hand doesn't mean he is actually trying to steal every pot. OP is brand new to the table and is only getting this info through grumblings and innuendo, not first hand experience. i strongly think that the 100% comment is overstating it. while his bluffing frequency *probably* IS high here it is far from 100%.

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Secondly, while he could have a 5, since he would probably call with any two here, I don't think this is the way he would play a 5. The small checkraise is the way a weak player would play trips. Negreanu would probably lead out. If he checked, he would probably check/call, rather than make a reraise that looked like trips to make everyone fold. It seems like he is making a cheap attempt to steal the pot.

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have you played a lot with DN? how could you know all of this? why would you think he would lead rather than check when he knows a c-bet is coming? and if he checked and there was a bet and a call, just calling here with trips is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. what is he calling for? to let a flush draw in cheaply? to set up a checkraise on the turn when the likelyhood of action is decreased? checkraising is a perfectly fine and standard play here. i don't see why you would think only a weak player would do this.

also given DN's loose image and "trying to steal every pot" mode i think this actually a time where he would show a little more constraint in bluffing because it does look like he is bluffing and trying to win every pot.

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I really think this is a good bluffing oportunity for Negreanu with a bet and flat call, since both players represented some strength but not a lot of strength. I don't say he is bluffing every flop, but this is an opportunity.

Helmuth's book describes how Negreanu plays any two cards early and looks for indications from betting patterns and tells and tries to steal pots. Then sometimes he connects with his junk hands. Obviously either is possible here, as he certainly could have a 5. However, it would be naive to think he was playing straightforwardly and wouldn't make a move in this situation.

I also don't think he would make a minireraise with trips against two players. Atleast that's not how I would play it.

As for giving flush draws a free card, I think it would be more important to disguise your hand here an try to win a big pot. You also have redraws against a flush and some flush cards make a boat.

Obviously, Negreanu is a top player and he has suceeded in putting OP in a very difficult situation, whatever his hand is. Negreanu could have the nuts or nothing. That is why seeing a flop with a junk hand OOP when Negreanu was going to overcall was probably not a good idea.

When Negreanu is playing every junk hand, does it really make sense to play junk hands against him, particularly when you are flat calling rather than raising?

Now if button raised, and Negreanu called in the SB, and you were in the BB, it would be a good place for a squeeze play.

[betgo]

The thing is that the minicheckraise doesn't do much for you except represent a set. Why scare everyone away except flush draws who now know what you have, when you don't even get much into the pot. If Negreanu checkraised with trips, I think it would be bigger. That is why this looks like a play to me.

[bpc009]

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Anyway, I did let him have it. It was exactly the kind of precedent I didn't want to set, but I didn't feel like I had much of a choice.

Negreanu claimed K5 after the hand. He also made a comment comparing this hand to the previous hand, which sounded candid. So I tend to believe him.

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Indeed you did - sorry. I just got lost in all the talk about how you misplayed the hand before your question. example:

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Just to reiterate:

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That's what you get for playing Q8s when you are OOP and DN has played almost every pot.

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btw, how was the overall ME experience for you?

[sunrise]

I like reraising preflop if we think old guy is weak.
otherwise fold preflop.

as played I would probably C/R myself to try to get DN out and get it HU with the original raiser. Also to try to represent a strong hand and end the hand right there.

[CieloAzor]

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as played I would probably C/R myself to try to get DN out and get it HU with the original raiser. Also to try to represent a strong hand and end the hand right there.

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Hmm...I think calling is pretty clear. If I'm raising just to take the pot down, I may as well not have top pair at all. I also don't want to raise for value and I don't feel like my hand needs a ton of protection after two checks and a continuation bet. A raise pretty well commits me to the pot and doesn't seem necessary for any reason. I'd be happy to hear the arguments for raising though, from anybody who would go that way.

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btw, how was the overall ME experience for you?

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Sadly, I went out of my way to bust myself with ~1000 left on day 3. I topped 60k twice on day 2, but lost big pots both times. Almost all the players I played with were either skilled/aggressive/creative reraising types or very tight. Just bad table draws I think. I suppose the big exception was Louie Anderson, but somebody else got his chips.

I played with Nam Le for most of day 2 but he played very tight. I'm not sure we ever played a pot together.

Overall, I had a pretty good time and felt like I played well without ever getting hugely lucky. Hopefully I'll find a way to build a big stack faster next year.

Also...I expect I'll be on TV near the end of the Day 1C episode. Negreanu had all of the media attention at that point and he was discussing a hand with Hellmuth who was railbirding and standing on the other side of me. So that's pretty cool.