77 on JJ7 slowplay or bet hoping someone has J?

[yvesaint]

richgambler,

dont listen to these chumps. raising clearly dominated hands like 55 to 7x or 6x BB preflop is obviously a losing play. i mean come on DUH you ONLY get called by AA-JJ. and 55 is worse than AA-JJ

[keikiwai]

Rich,

Use statistsic to extract the max.

It is a 2 tone flop, and with that many villains, you are mathematically guaranteed at least one flush draw. Make use of this knowledge.

For years now, the standard play has been to min bet the flop here. Flush draws like to min-raise semi-bluff min bets. When this inevitable happens, you can min-3bet, and hopefully keep the cycle going. Since these are all min-bets, none of the villains will fold.

If you reverse exploit the timer run-down tell, you can min-bet all the way to all-in and stack everyone.

GL dude. Sometimes in NL the correct answer is counter intuitive, but logical, nonetheless.

[Dan Bitel]

bump

[ThePortuguee]

[ QUOTE ]
richgambler,

dont listen to these chumps. raising clearly dominated hands like 55 to 7x or 6x BB preflop is obviously a losing play. i mean come on DUH you ONLY get called by AA-JJ. and 55 is worse than AA-JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

like. this guy has got to be kidding. i think. becuase he's giving me a headache.

Incidentally, I skimmed the latter portion fo the thread, but wasn't RichGambler arguing that that an average player at these stakes would look at a 7BB raise and instamuck AK? and AQ?

err... lol?

Also someone earlier said something to the effect of "the reason you raise pps is to take down the pot when you miss and win a big pot when you flop a set." Fundamentally, isn't the operative logical assumption here: "They'll fold when you miss and call when when you hit?"

Seems flawed to me.

Not that I don't advocate raising with pps (I do, in fact) but I'd like to hear stronger arguments when trying to educate people as to your opinions.

[alwardc4]

Reading this thread was making my head explode.

Limping pf with 77 is perfectly acceptable. You are playing it for set value. IF you don't flop a 7 then you can fold.

Now, should you bet flopped boats. In this case, I say yes. For me it depends on the flop. For example, I may slow play a 7-2-2 rainbow flop. Someone is much more likely to have a J than say a 2. Plus, there is a flush draw out there. You should get some action. Rarely is slowplaying correct, especially at this level.

[aces_full]

[ QUOTE ]
Im a newbie but:

I almost always slow-play boats because I want people to get draws or think their PP is still good. If I want to be tricky I will make a semi-weak bet like $3.1 on the flop, but then go back to my usual aggressive play on the turn and river. I've managed to extract a few bets off of players with air like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally this is a bad way to play. First of all, with 77 on a JJ7 flop your hand can easily be outdrawn our counterfeited. Second, if you have the underfull and the board pair is tens or higher, it's pretty likely someone has trips and they will most certainly raise if you lead right out. Then you can push. You have to make AJ pay his stack to try and make a bigger full house. Even if I held JJ on a J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop I probably still bet. Why? Because the other day at $50NL I raised PF with AK and got a couple of callers on a KJX flop. I bet and get one caller. The turn bricks and I poosh since villain has slightly less than 2X pot less. He insta-calls with AQ!!! and of course rivers a ten. I have also run into my share of morons who call 2 barrels with a draw. Players who are dumb enough to make calls like this aren't going to be scared by a paired flop. Bet this out and expect to be called by flush draws and even crap like 89 and 9T. Essentially when you check and get your check called by a player who would call if you bet, you are leaving money on the table.

[viper930]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, owned.

[Montezuma21]

firstly, lol.

here are my thoughts on PPs like 77and lower, wondering if anyone can help me think more deeply about them.

Assuming c~100BB stacks

I'll call w/ any small PP for less than 9BB; love them in multiway pots where they're usually very easy to play. fold when you don't hit, stack TPTK when you do. (i play SSNL, where ppl always stack off with TPTK on non-scary boards) The value of raising PPs goes up the higher up you move in stakes for two reasons: a. you're MORE likely to stack villain's decent holdings in a raised pot. b. it disguises your hand.
at SSNL, i think the importance of raising PPs go down because ppl are calling stations anyway and you'll stack their TPTK no matter how small the pot is. and they're certainly not paying attention to your play.
Unless the table is crawling with shorties, i can't think of any reason for not raising PPs because: a. stacks are deep enough that you get the right implied odds anyways b. you get folding equity c. it disguises your hand very well. (how ppl. play sets is a great read to have.)



I'll C bet with very small PPs on scary boards slightly less than with other holdings because my hand is so much less liekly to improve than say, overcards, and i hate putting pressure with 2 outs.

i think ppl. CB a little too much on the flop anyways.