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#41
07-22-2006, 06:37 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Each side has done awful things and killed lots of innocent kids. And the idea of "they started it by taking our land first so we had to respond", or "we have a right to defend ourself" is pretty much irrelevant, given each side can go one step farther back in time and find a crime by the other side which becomes a rationalization for their act." [/ QUOTE ] Apart from limiting the actors to two sides (or "sides" generally) this is obvious. [ QUOTE ] "The reason is that both sides of this conflict are lead [sic] by disgusting, hate driven people who only want to kill Jews or disgusting people who only want to kill Arabs." [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Leaders exploit hatred but have to make choices about direction, policies, programs. They are constrained by institutions and material limits. The fact of leadership creates the possibility of settlement that pure hatred makes impossible. That's why the focus of debate needs to be on diplomacy. [/ QUOTE ] And how many times is Israel supposed to negotiate, only to have the Arabs violate the deal? Israel should not deal until its from their likely position of strength and any enforcement cannot rely on third parties, who have failed numerous times. 
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#42
07-22-2006, 07:29 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] both administrations should be put on international court of justice in Haag. [/ QUOTE ] To what end? You cant believe that courts, tribunals or resolutions will actually accomplish anything. [/ QUOTE ] IMO both sites went way too far. IMO they both are responsible for some bad decisions. maybe even more important - it would be a clear message for the same sites in the future, not to mention positive effect for all the other countries, how should conflicts (not) be resolved. also, it would be good sign to those goverments that support terrorist groups acting on their territory. maybe one of those two sites might become more strict in searching heavy weapon / artillery or terrorists among suspecious groups. yet, i might be wrong. one might believe there should be no rules and noone should be responsible for anything in war.
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#43
07-22-2006, 07:33 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] But my point is, and I firmly believe, that the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and whomever else could have peace with Israel and get pretty much the decent settlement that impartial observers would expect if they would simply ask for it and mean it when they say they want peace. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. My idea of a "decent settlement" includes Israel giving up everything it gained in the 6 day war, including the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Israel also must allow the PA to be a real goverment, including ending control of the territories borders and not capturing a third of the PA parliament when an election doesn't go the way Israel would like. Israel is a long way away politically from any of this with the possible exception of Golan. [/ QUOTE ] You've just outlined mostly what I think a decent settlement would be. You'll notice I said they would get 'pretty much' everything they want. Giving up all the settlements is impractical seeing as how they are so close in to Israel and incorporated into it's society. I would offer a land swap for the territory kept and development money. 'Palestine' would be a country in all respects. Golan back to Syria. East Jerusalem capital of Palestine so long as unfettered access to the Western Wall is guaranteed. The 'right of return', except for a symbolic few, has to be given up. Can the Israelis trust the Palestinians at this time to honor an agreement like this? I wouldn't. Some on here would say to give it a try but to me the matter is too serious, too fraught with danger, to take huge chances. Besides, the above is very like Barak's offer at Camp David and it was rejected by Arafat and he was (shudder) more 'reasonable' (shudder) than Hamas and Hizballah.
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#44
07-22-2006, 08:40 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But my point is, and I firmly believe, that the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and whomever else could have peace with Israel and get pretty much the decent settlement that impartial observers would expect if they would simply ask for it and mean it when they say they want peace. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. My idea of a "decent settlement" includes Israel giving up everything it gained in the 6 day war, including the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Israel also must allow the PA to be a real goverment, including ending control of the territories borders and not capturing a third of the PA parliament when an election doesn't go the way Israel would like. Israel is a long way away politically from any of this with the possible exception of Golan. [/ QUOTE ] You've just outlined mostly what I think a decent settlement would be. You'll notice I said they would get 'pretty much' everything they want. Giving up all the settlements is impractical seeing as how they are so close in to Israel and incorporated into it's society. I would offer a land swap for the territory kept and development money. 'Palestine' would be a country in all respects. Golan back to Syria. East Jerusalem capital of Palestine so long as unfettered access to the Western Wall is guaranteed. The 'right of return', except for a symbolic few, has to be given up. Can the Israelis trust the Palestinians at this time to honor an agreement like this? I wouldn't. Some on here would say to give it a try but to me the matter is too serious, too fraught with danger, to take huge chances. Besides, the above is very like Barak's offer at Camp David and it was rejected by Arafat and he was (shudder) more 'reasonable' (shudder) than Hamas and Hizballah. [/ QUOTE ] Golan can never be put on the table, it is far too important to the water supply. The West Bank is what....35% of all of Israel? When since the original borders theyve already lost more than half? The Western Wall and Temple Mount? c'mon If the Arabs didnt have their track record of violating every agreement then possibly Golan could be in play, and risk the strategic value. The West Bank and EJ? no way
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#45
07-22-2006, 09:34 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
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[ QUOTE ] Egypt asked for peace with Israel and got it. Jordan asked for peace with Israel and got it. Voila! [/ QUOTE ] Please dont over-complicate things so much. [/ QUOTE ] If, when you say 'egypt asked for peace and got it' you are referring to the peace treaty that Jimmy Carter negotiated years back, Egypt offered a similiar treaty a few years earlier (in fact the terms were a little more favourable to Isreal) and was denied. It is not always so clear cut.
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#46
07-22-2006, 09:35 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
You are completely correct to say that murder is murder and it's atrociously immoral.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux7.html
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#47
07-22-2006, 09:42 PM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Egypt asked for peace with Israel and got it. Jordan asked for peace with Israel and got it. Voila! [/ QUOTE ] Please dont over-complicate things so much. [/ QUOTE ] If, when you say 'egypt asked for peace and got it' you are referring to the peace treaty that Jimmy Carter negotiated years back, Egypt offered a similiar treaty a few years earlier (in fact the terms were a little more favourable to Isreal) and was denied. It is not always so clear cut. [/ QUOTE ] I believe he is talking about the current relationship
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#48
07-23-2006, 12:32 AM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
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In other words, a compromise to you is total capitulation. That is exactly the kind of thinking that is causing the problems in the first place. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, I was away watching a baseball game. You're dead wrong when I advocate a total capitulation. Hamas and Hezbollah want to push the Jews into the Med, Israel wants to keep the West Bank, Golan and probably now Southern Lebanon. The compromise is the Jews get to keep what they seized in the War of Independence and no Right of Return. [ QUOTE ] The West Bank is what....35% of all of Israel? When since the original borders theyve already lost more than half? [/ QUOTE ] There really shouldn't be a problem with this, since Israel got along ok without the West Bank before 67 without nukes. But if the West Bank is that important, I would also be fine with giving the Palestinians Israeli Citizenship and letting them vote in Israeli elections. At least that way, the Palestinians would have the political muscle to protect their rights and not have to put up with this occupation [censored].
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#49
07-23-2006, 12:40 AM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
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The compromise is the Jews get to keep what they seized in the War of Independence and no Right of Return. [/ QUOTE ] The Palestinians have already indicated, on numerous occasions, that they will not accept that.
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#50
07-23-2006, 12:45 AM
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Re: Convince me that that both sides aren\'t simply disgusting murderer
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Hamas and Hezbollah want to push the Jews into the Med, [/ QUOTE ] So far, you are correct. Let's see what else you have to say... [ QUOTE ] Israel wants to keep the West Bank, [/ QUOTE ] Is that why Israel offered 97% of it to the Palestinains? [ QUOTE ] and probably now Southern Lebanon. [/ QUOTE ] Bzzzzt. Wrong answer. Making inflammatory statements unsupported by facts is trolling.
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