Wynn 10k Poker Classic Hand - Page 5

adanthar · #41 03-09-2007, 04:24 PM

yo ZJ, I like this post, I wonder why [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I'm fairly sure he has a bare 6 here too, so a raise is pretty mandatory, but the Q is whether you want to raise or just shove. Online with these stacks, I'd autoshove. Live, the bet size means less and they can find some pretty tough folds, so the balance shades a little towards raise/fold. But 6500 just isn't enough to get max value...7-8K somewhere sounds right.

woodguy · #42 03-09-2007, 04:40 PM

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So if you are going to be calling a shove anyway, I do not see the merit in shoving allin yourself, because you really cant make anything fold that you would WANT to fold.

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Call me a nit, but if I'm BB I can't call a raise with a naked 6 given that 67, 68, 77, and 88 are boated up.

If I'm BB I'm leading with my boats because every hand that is behind is calling. I'm c/c my naked 6, especially since the flush didn't get there, I'd want a flush draw to stab at the river, and lose less when outdrawn. edit: or were never ahead.

I'm not sold that a river raise is automatic here.

Regards,
Woodguy

0evg0 · #43 03-09-2007, 04:41 PM

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So if you are going to be calling a shove anyway, I do not see the merit in shoving allin yourself, because you really cant make anything fold that you would WANT to fold.

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Call me a nit, but if I'm BB I can't call a raise with a naked 6 given that 67, 68, 77, and 88 are boated up.

If I'm BB I'm leading with my boats because every hand that is behind is calling. I'm c/c my naked 6, especially since the flush didn't get there, I'd want a flush draw to stab at the river, and lose less when outdrawn.

I'm not sold that a river raise is automatic here.

Regards,
Woodguy

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The only flaw in your thinking here is that you're not the BB.

woodguy · #44 03-09-2007, 04:44 PM

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The only flaw in your thinking here is that you're not the BB.

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Ummmm......I'm saying that I think the BB has us beat when he leads the river, but its a call due to the frequency of him having a naked 6, not a raise.

edit: or are you saying that the BB isn't a low level nit like me, so don't think this way?....which is reasonable....

Regards,
Woodguy

0evg0 · #45 03-09-2007, 04:46 PM

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The only flaw in your thinking here is that you're not the BB.

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Ummmm......I'm saying that I think the BB has us beat when he leads the river, but its a call due to the frequency of him having a naked 6, not a raise.

Regards,
Woodguy

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And I'm saying a random guy who took such a weird line probably isn't going through the same thought processes you would be.

woodguy · #46 03-09-2007, 04:49 PM

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And I'm saying a random guy who took such a weird line probably isn't going through the same thought processes you would be.

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I get it now.

Justin described him as a young pro or semi pro type, he's probably better at poker than me.....but maybe that's why he's probably value betting a 6 here and I can't [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Irieguy · #47 03-09-2007, 05:37 PM

I like the way you played every street, though I probably open-raise rather than open limp preflop.

I think the key to this hand is getting max value every time he has a 6. That means shove the river and I'd do it quickly with subtle feigned confidence. Then if he started thinking I would probably do something. Talk, take a drink, play with my chips, whatever... I want him to find a reason to call with his 6. I know you don't move much or talk at the table, so as "you" I would probably just quickly go all-in and then as soon as he paused I would lean back in my chair.

This all might seem ridiculous to some, but ZJ I know you know how easy it can be to coax a call.

The reason why I like shoving rather than raising less is because he is simply not going to fold to a shove with a 6 often enough to make any other line more valuable.

Irieguy

ZeeJustin · #48 03-09-2007, 05:43 PM

All, I'm really surprised at how vastly different peoples' takes are on literally EVERY decision in this hand.

WarDekar · #49 03-09-2007, 05:45 PM

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I like the way you played every street, though I probably open-raise rather than open limp preflop.

I think the key to this hand is getting max value every time he has a 6. That means shove the river and I'd do it quickly with subtle feigned confidence. Then if he started thinking I would probably do something. Talk, take a drink, play with my chips, whatever... I want him to find a reason to call with his 6. I know you don't move much or talk at the table, so as "you" I would probably just quickly go all-in and then as soon as he paused I would lean back in my chair.

This all might seem ridiculous to some, but ZJ I know you know how easy it can be to coax a call.

The reason why I like shoving rather than raising less is because he is simply not going to fold to a shove with a 6 often enough to make any other line more valuable.

Irieguy

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I agree completely, it's nice to see you Irie I haven't noticed you around in a long time.

This is why I changed my line from call to shoving immediately after thinking more.

You hit your hand. You were paying a ton along the way to try and hit that hand. Someone said earlier to take the attitude you now have to push is wrong, but in this instance I think it is the exactly correct play.

You have to somehow get him to call off his stack on the times that you do have him beat, or it wasn't worth playing it this way to begin with. That's why I would shove instead of smaller raising. If he has a boat and beats you with the shove, so be it. But I think you can get a 6 to call more often than a smaller raise sometimes, plus even if it's the same or slightly less often you get more value by getting all his chips as there's NO way he's pushing all in on a bare 6 otherwise.

Again, nice hand to post.

ZeeJustin · #50 03-09-2007, 05:47 PM

FWIW, preflop is normally a raise for me, but because of my momentum at the table, it became a call in this hand.

Basically, if I think I've been raising so much that people might be looking for spots to reraise me, I will start limping occasionally (I'll do this from late position as well. It works really well in live tournaments to discourage reraises.)

Also, this was not the type of table where I thought limpers would be punished.