Don't raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
In short, what I'm asking is:

Where are you extracting more value by limping AK in your example, as opposed to making the more standard play of raising with it? Assuming standard table conditions with competent players, and not freak 500bb effective stacks or other oddball scenarios.

Second, when you do make TPTK, how much heat are you willing to take with it in an unraised pot? Since you won't get credit for having AK, wouldn't that mean that you're more likley to get action from TPGK hands as well?

Third, what kind of flop are you hoping for (apart from the nut straight)?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I limp in w/ it, it's from a pure metagame standpoint and not from a EV standpoint. I'm willing to give up the +EV on that particular hand if it will help me win a big pot later on in the game. I only do it against good players who I play with a lot and usually only when I am the button. I also only play live and not online.

I was only using the nut straight as an example. I know it doesn't happen a lot. But the point is, if you always raise w/ it, when you don't raise your observant opponents will know you don't have AK.

BTW- I play with 3 or 4 guys 2-3x a week. So I do play a lot against them. That's why I mix it up like that. It may not and probably isn't ideal for most players, but for me it is.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if it makes sense to not raise with AK preflop in an extremly loose game. The kind of game where a continuation bet on the flop will almost never take it down. Essentially, if you miss, you're probably going to lose the pot.

Opinions? Is this just results based thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually remember seeing a sentence like this while rereading NLHETAP last night. I'll look it up tonight when I get home and see if I can quote the page and context of the statement. I'd hate to misquote it in a thread like this one.

I usually raise AK even in loose games since guys with small pairs who fail to flop a set, and guys who flop bottom-pair or no-pair will fold often enough to a continuation bet from an otherwise "tight" preflop raiser to make a raise/c-b combo profitable on most flops. Obviously, there are flop textures and game conditions where a c/f on a missed flop might be better, but that doesn't mean raising preflop wasn't a good idea.

Also, sometimes I might limp in EP with the intention of a big limp/rr, but I wouldn't try that in a loose-passive game like the one you described in the OP.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually remember seeing a sentence like this while rereading NLHETAP last night. I'll look it up tonight when I get home and see if I can quote the page and context of the statement. I'd hate to misquote it in a thread like this one.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I'm home and found the sections from the book.

In No Limit Hold 'Em Theory and Practice, in the "Adjusting to Loose Games and Players" section, there are some relevant ideas that do NOT say "never raise with AK." But they have some ideas that sound kind of similar if you don't think them through carefully.

p. 185:
[ QUOTE ]
2. Big preflop pots for big pairs. Seek big preflop pots with big pocket pairs like pocket kings, but avoid them with big unpaired cards like ace-king.

[/ QUOTE ]

and p. 186
[ QUOTE ]
"Loosen Up" - The better you play after the flop, the wider the range of hands you can play. Raise your better hands for value as well as sometimes the weak ones to balance. If the blinds are somewhat tough, raise a little more often to isolate [a] bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a lot more, but basically the theme seems to be don't build a big pot preflop with a hand that will miss the flop 2/3s of the time, and have little chance of winning with a continuation bet. That does NOT mean "always limp with AK." Instead, raising AK for value, and then value betting when you hit TPTK, but not bluffing very often when you miss, would be a good strategy in the game described in the OP, especially if the pot ends up multi-way post flop. Also, if you have AK in position vs loose passive players who limped, you should often raise to isolate those players, especially if blinds are good players.

Anyway, I can't see "always limping AK" as a good strategy even in a loose passive game. Raise for value. Raise to get good position on weak players. Just value bet more, and bluff less post-flop than you might in other kinds of games.

[LifeIsABadBeat]

I usually switch my play up continually no matter what my hands are, but......

AK is a wierd hand, especially out of position.
I tend to hate the hand in general in any cash game if it doesn't hit.

There's a lot of problems building a big pot preflop with AK.

Truthfully the only time I make a big bet preflop with AK is suited in position.

I usually don't limp with it, not matter what but I tend to make a samll pot with it and if it hits correctly or I sense weakness postflop I push it.

I think the it depends on the style of play of each particular player, not the nature of the whole table.

I mean let's say you're on a 1/2 NL table and you get an average preflop of $10-22, and basically no matter the bet you're getting 5 callers preflop from all types of postion.

If I am 2 from the big blind with AK off, I probrably raise $7 or $8.

I swear on that type of table you get less callers with a "weird" bet.

So lets say you get 3 callers and your pot is $32 after blinds and rake accounted for and the flop comes A 10 3.

You are 2nd to act and the BB checks, you can now bet maybe $22.

If the flop is a rainbow, you're getting called by any half ass ace and possibly a 10 if someone calls 1st.
You might get a QJ call too.

But the point is if you get 2 callers and let's say the turn is a 3, you are more than likely gold and the pot isn't too too big.

So now the pot is like $98 and a weak ace is feeling better about their hand, but the pot is big enough to get them to call and the draws, along with the 10 out.

You could bet say, $50 and still get a call from AJ down to maybe A4. And probrably get the QJ and J10 out.

Now let's say same scenario and the turn is a 10, and you make the same bet, and the guy you know is holding as 10 repops big, it's cheaper to get away from.

The point is loose players are normally loose players.

If you make the same hand and preflop had raised to $20 and got 1 more caller, your pot postflop is now $100.
You basicaly have to bet $50-80 to get anyone off a decent draw or mid pair if they are loose post flop as well, so it starts getting a lot more expensive.

If the turn is the same, and you had bet $60 postflop and got 2 callers, the pot is now $280.

If the scenario played out the same you are sitting pretty with your aces up big kick, but if the ten hits, on top of you wating about $40 more already, your next bet would probrably be something along the lines of $125, almost as nothing more than a feeler/I think I am safe bet. Now if this guy pushes back hard, all in, say another $380 on top you have a truly major decision to make.

"I mean, $hit, is he bluffing with nothing, does he think he's good with AQ, did he have A3, and he is making the push out of some type of unfair turn logic?"
This is what you start thinking.

I Just think with AK small pot poker is the better idea, along with going with your reads, because it makes it easier to get away from, and some how at the same time less likely you'll get bluffed.

But post flop you can't play too small, so they can catch up, just 3/4 all day.

[LifeIsABadBeat]

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I have been bouncing all over this thread, and when I read this post I mostly agreed with you.

I feel so many people over value this crappy but pretty hand so many times.

I can't tell you how many times I've had those 2-3 good players on the table, maybe tilted from a donk suckout overvalue this hand, try to bluff the enite way down, and I wind up taking literally $200-400 off them just calling them with mid pair to the river on a read that was on point in a $1/2 or $2/5 NL game.

There is so much discussion and theory to be said on AK, but I aminly believ in the basics like you were saying.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

Well, for those of you that characterized AK as "a crappy but pretty hand" and "a relatively weak holding" I can only say that it has consistenly been one of the most profitable hands for me over hundreds of thousands of hands. This is in line with the experience of many if nor most other players as well. If it appears "crappy but pretty" to you you may wish to consider if you are maximizing its value....say by cranking it up pre-flop and semi-bluffing small pocket pairs OOP who have missed the flop, and who most of the board looks scary to.

Check when you miss on a coordinated board or against multiple opponents, unless they are weak-tight.

As far as the poster suggesting that he likes to call down AK, I assume you like calling down AA KK QQ JJ and sets with your middle pair as well. AK is part of an overall balanced and aggressive strategy that encourages middle pair calls. I assure you i will not be on a bluff train often enough for it to be profitable for you.

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I have been bouncing all over this thread, and when I read this post I mostly agreed with you.

I feel so many people over value this crappy but pretty hand so many times.

I can't tell you how many times I've had those 2-3 good players on the table, maybe tilted from a donk suckout overvalue this hand, try to bluff the enite way down, and I wind up taking literally $200-400 off them just calling them with mid pair to the river on a read that was on point in a $1/2 or $2/5 NL game.

There is so much discussion and theory to be said on AK, but I aminly believ in the basics like you were saying.

[/ QUOTE ]



THIS POST IS DUMB

THIS THREAD IS DUMB









CAN WE PLZ LET THIS DIE

[Fish Fodder]

AK PF is situational for me. If the table has a bunch of loose PF raisers and I'm not getting respect; I'll 3-bet it PF in EP with a good chance of taking it right there or at least cooling LAG jets for fear of getting re-raised. That's about 20% of the time. The majority of the time I bet it heavy right up front to extract maximum value while holding the best hand and put loose players behind the Odds 8-Ball right off the bat. If they want to play catch-up Post-Flop, fine, but they'll have to put their whole stack at risk long before they reach the River because I'll be betting the Flop heavy 90% of the time if it's not SUPER-threatening. Same on Turn.

It's been my experience that loose players, especially at lower stakes, don't consider pot odds, draws odds, or SPR's hardly at all. What they're looking for is that miracle catch or bluff where they can runner-runner a big pot. In other words, they're playing for Implied Odds alone and even then incorrectly. They're thinking "2:1 for a draw to the River!" when in reality it's 4:1 on the next card. If you can get most or all of their money in the pot on the Flop or Turn they get VERY uncomfortable and quite often compound their mistake by folding right there or by going AI on the Turn when they're 4:1.

.02

[LifeIsABadBeat]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, for those of you that characterized AK as "a crappy but pretty hand" and "a relatively weak holding" I can only say that it has consistenly been one of the most profitable hands for me over hundreds of thousands of hands. This is in line with the experience of many if nor most other players as well. If it appears "crappy but pretty" to you you may wish to consider if you are maximizing its value....say by cranking it up pre-flop and semi-bluffing small pocket pairs OOP who have missed the flop, and who most of the board looks scary to.

Check when you miss on a coordinated board or against multiple opponents, unless they are weak-tight.

As far as the poster suggesting that he likes to call down AK, I assume you like calling down AA KK QQ JJ and sets with your middle pair as well. AK is part of an overall balanced and aggressive strategy that encourages middle pair calls. I assure you i will not be on a bluff train often enough for it to be profitable for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't mean I will always call down with middle pair, against holdings like a big pocket pair.

I just go with my reads most of the time.

I do not need 55 different math equations to tell me when someone is pushing AK.

I also do not play on the internet, so I imagine this does make a difference.

You know what, everybody has their own opinion on the hand and their way to play it, and I guess it comes down to what is best and most comfortable to you, unless you are constantly losing with AK or mucking it repeatedly after a big/ no preflop raise. If this is the case you need to change the way you are playing the hand.

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, for those of you that characterized AK as "a crappy but pretty hand" and "a relatively weak holding" I can only say that it has consistenly been one of the most profitable hands for me over hundreds of thousands of hands. This is in line with the experience of many if nor most other players as well. If it appears "crappy but pretty" to you you may wish to consider if you are maximizing its value....say by cranking it up pre-flop and semi-bluffing small pocket pairs OOP who have missed the flop, and who most of the board looks scary to.

Check when you miss on a coordinated board or against multiple opponents, unless they are weak-tight.

As far as the poster suggesting that he likes to call down AK, I assume you like calling down AA KK QQ JJ and sets with your middle pair as well. AK is part of an overall balanced and aggressive strategy that encourages middle pair calls. I assure you i will not be on a bluff train often enough for it to be profitable for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't mean I will always call down with middle pair, against holdings like a big pocket pair.

I just go with my reads most of the time.

I do not need 55 different math equations to tell me when someone is pushing AK.

I also do not play on the internet, so I imagine this does make a difference.

You know what, everybody has their own opinion on the hand and their way to play it, and I guess it comes down to what is best and most comfortable to you, unless you are constantly losing with AK or mucking it repeatedly after a big/ no preflop raise. If this is the case you need to change the way you are playing the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry but you're wrong. if you're more comfortable treating AK like its not a big hand it's because you're bad at poker.