50 Questions for Mormons

[WiiiiiiMan]

I can guarantee you that if I went into any LDS church and asked what was worse, placing a bet on something or Drinking Booze, I'd say about 90% at least maybe 99.9% would say drinking and the only ones who would say gambling would be those who drink.

As to why I am here, I am human and am not perfect.

I like to sports bet and play poker occasionally.

I def am not ready to be THAT GUY yet. Too young to be those 45 or 50 year old's that you admire for how they live. Not quite there yet, LOL.... Not strong enough..

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is funny.

I am Mormon.

Why?

Cause I believe with every fiber of my being that this is the truth.

And no matter how you want to try to spin stuff, that won't change, sure I could just go against everything I believe just because I don't have eye witness proof or so called skeptics and scholars think they can outsmart the bible or prophets and prove them to be stupid but that doesn't really matter does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

At least you're being honest. What you've basically said is that you're unwilling to listen to any evidence against your beliefs, and you're going to hold steadfast to your beliefs simply because they are your beliefs.

No logical discussion can be had with someone like you.

[threeonefour]

-Wiiiman

no doubt on the drinking vs gambling thing. gambling doesn't have its own section in the D&C.

-Justin A

are you even interested in a logical discussion? honestly? I mean you already know the conclusion that you will be coming to right. most people are more interested in making the other guy look silly in these type of discussions. or they are legitimately ignorant (at least to some extent) about the belief system and just want to learn about their perspective.

EDIT:


here's some logic, from a positivist's standpoint the average/median LDS person lives longer, is nicer, and happier than the average joe off the street. The first claim is pretty easy to see as true, the 2nd and 3rd are subjective but honestly not that hard to agree with. Of course there are people for whom the religion really clashes with their mentality and really anguish because of it.

however, when its all said and done, many members are living much better lives because of the church. They are part of a HUGE social network and have a ton of friends because of the church. I can not stress how powerful the social network is. if two families are catholic, there isn't an innate bond, maybe if they are both irish catholic and from the bronx. if you are mormon, you immediately have a bond with other mormons, the sense of community is probably not unlike what the amish have.

you never have to hire movers if you are mormon, elders quorum will help you pack without fail. if your wife/mother goes the hospital you will have casseroles coming out your eyes from relief society.

even if we suppose that the religion part of the deal is false, many Mormons would want to live the lifestyle regardless because its just a great lifestyle for them. i don't think you can argue that the church isn't on net a positive for MANY members.


personally, i don't really like the culture and feel suffocated around Mormons but I am not about to suggest they should conform to my lifestyle.

[WiiiiiiMan]

Saying you can't have a logical discussion with me is very false.

Saying that what you find to be convincing enough to not have my beliefs should be enough for me isn't reasonable.

I look at things very logically, but my belief isn't for sale or debate.

Trying to spin biblical scripture to make it look like random bs just isn't going to have an affect on me.

Sorry your mind is that weak that you believe the first thing you read until someone else comes out with their own agenda about it..

[WiiiiiiMan]

What is a logical discussion to you guys? Is it erase everything you believe and then answer the questions based on the top 10 searches in google or what scientist have concluded?

Well, the game of let's forget our personal beliefs and pretend to just look at the facts doesn't sound like a worthwhile game.

I think there is more then we know as facts and since we can exist, the universe does, and billion other things could that we do not know about, I feel it's pretty logical to take leaps of faith on things like religion if it gives us answers to our purpose on this earth, right and wrong, etc.

It takes Steps, I believe in my existence, I believe in a Creator, I believe in the infinite universe, the Bible makes sense to me, BOM clicks as truth to me, I felt the power the spirit that book brings. Put them together and I think it's more logical to have those convictions then just believing in randomness and nothing.

Why do I believe cause I have felt it and it is undeniable and no matter what its pierced to my heart.

Why don't you? Cause you haven't. So you guys see those who have, and you can't understand that.

Kind of like those guys who never have serious relationships and see a loving couple who are on cloud 9 and they look at them like they are brainwashed or nuts and that guy says to himself, I aint never letting myself get in that situation.

Well, he said it, if you don't want to feel it, you won't

But, I don't read 20 books a week and study up on physics and chemistry for fun so obv whatever I say it just cause im ignorant and stupid and very uneducated.

Toodles.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
What is a logical discussion to you guys? Is it erase everything you believe and then answer the questions based on the top 10 searches in google or what scientist have concluded?

Well, the game of let's forget our personal beliefs and pretend to just look at the facts doesn't sound like a worthwhile game.

I think there is more then we know as facts and since we can exist, the universe does, and billion other things could that we do not know about, I feel it's pretty logical to take leaps of faith on things like religion if it gives us answers to our purpose on this earth, right and wrong, etc.

It takes Steps, I believe in my existence, I believe in a Creator, I believe in the infinite universe, the Bible makes sense to me, BOM clicks as truth to me, I felt the power the spirit that book brings. Put them together and I think it's more logical to have those convictions then just believing in randomness and nothing.

Why do I believe cause I have felt it and it is undeniable and no matter what its pierced to my heart.

Why don't you? Cause you haven't. So you guys see those who have, and you can't understand that.

Kind of like those guys who never have serious relationships and see a loving couple who are on cloud 9 and they look at them like they are brainwashed or nuts and that guy says to himself, I aint never letting myself get in that situation.

Well, he said it, if you don't want to feel it, you won't

But, I don't read 20 books a week and study up on physics and chemistry for fun so obv whatever I say it just cause im ignorant and stupid and very uneducated.

Toodles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many of us understand your position but we believe that you feel the spirit for a reason other than the historical truth-claims in the BOM and the Bible.

Personally I would never object to your faith and your religious life. I would just ask that you reflect and investigate whether the history of Joseph Smith matters to your faith at all. Many theists believe that the history that they learned must be 100% correct. Many atheists bash this view because it is often clear that the history of certain religions are very dubious. I would contend that your relationships with your church, your larger religious community, and God have little to do with whether or not Joseph Smith actually saw the word of God on golden plates.

Being a Mormon doesn't mean that you have to believe tall tales and unreasonable claims about the world. It means loving your community and the message that it brings.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
here's some logic, from a positivist's standpoint the average/median LDS person lives longer, is nicer, and happier than the average joe off the street. The first claim is pretty easy to see as true,

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you share some supporting evidence of this? I'm not doubting it could be true, mostly because the "average/median lifespan" of non-LDS persons includes a lot of demographics that have short lifespans (homeless, 3rd world countries, drug addicts, etc.) But, I'd like to see any study you've seen on this, and how LDS lifespans compare with other demographics.


[ QUOTE ]
however, when its all said and done, many members are living much better lives because of the church. They are part of a HUGE social network and have a ton of friends because of the church. I can not stress how powerful the social network is. if two families are catholic, there isn't an innate bond, maybe if they are both irish catholic and from the bronx. if you are mormon, you immediately have a bond with other mormons, the sense of community is probably not unlike what the amish have.

you never have to hire movers if you are mormon, elders quorum will help you pack without fail. if your wife/mother goes the hospital you will have casseroles coming out your eyes from relief society.

even if we suppose that the religion part of the deal is false, many Mormons would want to live the lifestyle regardless because its just a great lifestyle for them. i don't think you can argue that the church isn't on net a positive for MANY members.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can attest to the fact that this is often true with Protestant Christian Churches as well, so it's not an exclusively LDS thing. I think a lot of cults are the same way: people like to be part of a community, especially when there are perks to being in that community. It's a strange phenomenon that it takes some wacky beliefs to bring people together to form a supportive community. If someone longs for that sort of community, but would rather not have to drink the cool-aid, I'd recommend trying out the Unitarian church. I might go back someday -- I liked it while I was there.

[WiiiiiiMan]

Good Point Taraz.

I think that the BOM is perfect not Joseph Smith.

To me he was just a man who was given this huge responsibility.

Probably made a lot of bad decisions and committed sins of his own. Who Cares. If it was just a guy who said something and the BOM didn't exist, that would be one thing.

But the BOM exists and anybody can read it, and it's my belief that if you do you realize it's more then just a guy trying to make something up to be an important person of power or something.

Should I really believe what every newspaper wrote about him in his day or what historians interpretations are of situations, why? How can I take there word or the bias of the press back then who hated the Mormons and he especially as 100% truthful fact.

No point to even give it any credibility to most of that stuff. And if he sinned, so what. If he made mistakes, not my place to judge.

I agree that being Mormon doesn't mean you have to believe everything a prophet says, etc, cause then again prophets are just human and humans are not perfect. I do give consideration to what the prophets say though, as they are the prophet.

But the BOM is something special and I believe its something that is real and not fiction.

[threeonefour]

-Kipbond

well anecdotally,

Mormons are instructed to:

not drink alcohol (virtually no devout members outsid of rebellious teenagers do)

not smoke (again virtually none do)

not drink coffee (same)

not eat a lot of meat (probably not that well followed)

treat their bodies as a temple


a little bit more evidence:

http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/...s-1843166.shtml

here is a transcript of the 60 minutes interview with the prophet of the church, in it Mike Wallace mentions Mormons living longer in a question. hit control-F and search for 'live longer'.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/60min.shtml

i just found this stuff after 10 seconds of googling. hopefully its strong enough evidence for an ad hoc poker forum debate.

[WiiiiiiMan]

The meat thing is just eat things in moderation.

Also, I have a couple guys coming over tonight in about 45 minutes that are the type of guys you can ask questions about anything to regarding the church and they have answers.

So if by 7pm or a little after..

What you want me to ask them,

About Joseph Smith or BOM, anything that you would want to stump them on, cause I when I read this forum, I always bring up the things you guys say.

So I see what they think. It helps me to understand my own beliefs better as I am not as educated and weathered as these guys who are in their 40s and 50s.

ask away.