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#41
11-02-2007, 11:02 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
1.) The second hand isn't analogous to this hand.
2.) The way this hand is played is a crime. You are relying on him making a wild bluff to gain value in your hand and you are light years ahead of his calling range. Congratulations if this hand worked out, but it's showing how exploitable you are, not how brillant you are (which seems your point tbh) 
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#42
11-02-2007, 11:05 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] dont mean to be clever, but really the way some ppl make it seem, that everyone is always overplaying their hands and felting any top pair or any draw (i agree some do, but to generalize that every1 does is pretty absurd), none of us should be in ssnl as we should all be doubling up through almost every1 at our table consistently with any hand equal or better to tptk. [/ QUOTE ] so we're wrong to assume that players over value TP, but it's it's correct for you to assume that they bluff and value bet light?? [/ QUOTE ] i think they r much much more likely to bet a queen on the river then to call a turn c/raise with it and then felt the river (beating only a bluff). Again though, not saying that queens make up that big a part of his range but if u combine the times hes bluffing and the times hes valuebtting a queen, like i just said - dont u think that makes up at least 1/3 of his range (what i need to justify calling)?.
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#43
11-02-2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] dont mean to be clever, but really the way some ppl make it seem, that everyone is always overplaying their hands and felting any top pair or any draw (i agree some do, but to generalize that every1 does is pretty absurd), none of us should be in ssnl as we should all be doubling up through almost every1 at our table consistently with any hand equal or better to tptk. [/ QUOTE ] so we're wrong to assume that players over value TP, but it's it's correct for you to assume that they bluff and value bet light?? [/ QUOTE ] i think they r much much more likely to bet a queen on the river then to call a turn c/raise with it and then felt the river (beating only a bluff). Again though, not saying that queens make up that big a part of his range but if u combine the times hes bluffing and the times hes valuebtting a queen, like i just said - dont u think that makes up at least 1/3 of his range (what i need to justify calling)?. [/ QUOTE ] i'm done discussing this hand except for this: as played, you should never ever be considering a fold on this river.
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#44
11-02-2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
1.) The second hand isn't analogous to this hand. 2.) The way this hand is played is a crime. You are relying on him making a wild bluff to gain value in your hand and you are light years ahead of his calling range. Congratulations if this hand worked out, but it's showing how exploitable you are, not how brillant you are (which seems your point tbh) [/ QUOTE ] lol, im def not trying to brag, i just argue in general and felt this hand was interesting, so what ur saying is i missed value from worse queens since tags regularly get stacked with any tp right? and, that tags will not fire multiple barrels against an incredibly weak line such as mine (maybe id slowplay the flop with a set but almost no strong hands slowplays the turn)?
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#45
11-02-2007, 11:12 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
Also, ike, what do u do when u lead flop and get 3bet? call and c/c a turn expecting "some wild bluff" as u said for his entire stack instead of a portion of it AND against a much stronger line. Or fold tptk on flop to any resistance?
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#46
11-02-2007, 11:19 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] All im saying is that as the pot gets bigger, he is less likely to bluff or be putting in more money with worse queens - do u disagree? [/ QUOTE ] i don't know what type of player he is. all you said was TAG. some TAGs bluff often, some don't. some value bet light, some check for pot control. we don't have this info, so when all else fails, bet and try to get value out of your strong hands instead of making things up in your head to add validity to your line. [ QUOTE ] And as for clubs, do i raise to price them in cause i want them to draw? This seems bad since: a) not all clubs stick around to a raise here (depending on the size obv) b) all his bluffs auto-muck c) very unlikely that worse queens felt a turn c/raise here (it seems like every1 is always saying that ppl auto-felt any top pair, even sum1 who had tag stats - 18/16 - like him ) d) i price myself in to felt against a set [/ QUOTE ] usually, i liek to raise to price them out, because some players call anyways with incorrect odds. if clubs fold, great, you win the pot and they don't draw. yes, all his bluff auto-muck, oh well, that's the price we pay when trying to get extra value sometimes. sure, some queens will fold sometimes, again, the price we pay to try to get extra value when we're against a player that felts TP. if he has a set, it's too bad, we're losing money and there's not much we can do about it. (btw, i wouldn't be c/r this turn often, because i would just be betting my hand most of the time) [/ QUOTE ] this is pretty riduclous IMO, i had missed it, essentially ur saying so what if club draws fold when drawing dead and felting any rivered club, so what if all his bluffs fold, so what if a lot of queens fold - uve gotta raise and only get by called a set, which would be unlucky but o well.
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#47
11-02-2007, 11:22 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] All im saying is that as the pot gets bigger, he is less likely to bluff or be putting in more money with worse queens - do u disagree? [/ QUOTE ] i don't know what type of player he is. all you said was TAG. some TAGs bluff often, some don't. some value bet light, some check for pot control. we don't have this info, so when all else fails, bet and try to get value out of your strong hands instead of making things up in your head to add validity to your line. [ QUOTE ] And as for clubs, do i raise to price them in cause i want them to draw? This seems bad since: a) not all clubs stick around to a raise here (depending on the size obv) b) all his bluffs auto-muck c) very unlikely that worse queens felt a turn c/raise here (it seems like every1 is always saying that ppl auto-felt any top pair, even sum1 who had tag stats - 18/16 - like him ) d) i price myself in to felt against a set [/ QUOTE ] usually, i liek to raise to price them out, because some players call anyways with incorrect odds. if clubs fold, great, you win the pot and they don't draw. yes, all his bluff auto-muck, oh well, that's the price we pay when trying to get extra value sometimes. sure, some queens will fold sometimes, again, the price we pay to try to get extra value when we're against a player that felts TP. if he has a set, it's too bad, we're losing money and there's not much we can do about it. (btw, i wouldn't be c/r this turn often, because i would just be betting my hand most of the time) [/ QUOTE ] this is pretty riduclous IMO, i had missed it, essentially ur saying so what if club draws fold when drawing dead and felting any rivered club, so what if all his bluffs fold, so what if a lot of queens fold - uve gotta raise and only get by called a set, which would be unlucky but o well. [/ QUOTE ] forgot we had the nut club draw. but everything else i said stands - except the parts where you misquoted me.
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#49
11-02-2007, 11:33 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
so what ur saying is i missed value from worse queens since tags regularly get stacked with any tp right? [/ QUOTE ] Again... [ QUOTE ] You are relying on him making a wild bluff to gain value in your hand and you are light years ahead of his calling range. [/ QUOTE ] That calling range is wider than queens. Especially on the flop. It's important to remember that this guy is unknown to you, therefore you are unknown to him. His calling range includes air, middle pairs, draws. People don't fold to flop bets. Theres no way you can say that the villain is so bluffy (since he's unknown) that its more profitable to check this flop than continue. Futhermore, I'm not saying to bet/bet/bet this hand, in fact, I think the ideal line is bet the flop, c/r this turn. It lets him put more money in on a float/bluff line, maximizes value against hands we have beat, and we have a lot of outs if we are surprisingly behind. [ QUOTE ] Also, ike, what do u do when u lead flop and get 3bet? call and c/c a turn expecting "some wild bluff" as u said for his entire stack instead of a portion of it AND against a much stronger line. Or fold tptk on flop to any resistance? [/ QUOTE ] 1.) It's not a 3bet. Count it up, it would be a 2bet. 2.) The probability of him calling is much, much higher than him raising. The reasoning for this is pretty simple. It's because the correct play from his point of view, given his preflop range, would be more often than to call than raise. If he raises the flop, then we deal with it, otherwise we bet for value against his range.
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#50
11-02-2007, 11:46 PM
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Re: Like it? Hate it?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] so what ur saying is i missed value from worse queens since tags regularly get stacked with any tp right? [/ QUOTE ] Again... [ QUOTE ] You are relying on him making a wild bluff to gain value in your hand and you are light years ahead of his calling range. [/ QUOTE ] That calling range is wider than queens. Especially on the flop. It's important to remember that this guy is unknown to you, therefore you are unknown to him. His calling range includes air, middle pairs, draws. People don't fold to flop bets. Theres no way you can say that the villain is so bluffy (since he's unknown) that its more profitable to check this flop than continue. Futhermore, I'm not saying to bet/bet/bet this hand, in fact, I think the ideal line is bet the flop, c/r this turn. It lets him put more money in on a float/bluff line, maximizes value against hands we have beat, and we have a lot of outs if we are surprisingly behind. [ QUOTE ] Also, ike, what do u do when u lead flop and get 3bet? call and c/c a turn expecting "some wild bluff" as u said for his entire stack instead of a portion of it AND against a much stronger line. Or fold tptk on flop to any resistance? [/ QUOTE ] 1.) It's not a 3bet. Count it up, it would be a 2bet. 2.) The probability of him calling is much, much higher than him raising. The reasoning for this is pretty simple. It's because the correct play from his point of view, given his preflop range, would be more often than to call than raise. If he raises the flop, then we deal with it, otherwise we bet for value against his range. [/ QUOTE ] This is all read-dependent obviously, but OP has some good points. Ike, of course I like your line against a good, aggro reg, but here we don't know that, and the flop is super-dry but with a high card, so some random SSNL dude is going to float with air, just cause, and bet the turn, just cause? We are repping a WA/WB hand. Which is, in fact, pretty close to what we have. And if you suspect that betting is likely to fold out worse hands, well, go ahead and c/c for as many streets as Villain feels like betting. This might seem overly simplistic to some posters, but against an ABC villain, it is actually a very good line.
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