Can Christians Accept A Ressurection Within The Laws of Physics?

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not bashing PTB, I've told him many times before I respect his beliefs and I prefer his brand of religious belief to what's commonly practiced.

But... I think the resurrection of Jesus (actual, not spiritual) is the CENTRAL belief of the Christian faith. It is not open to personal interpretation. If you don't believe Jesus physically died and rose from the dead, you may be spiritual or religious - but you aren't Christian IMO.

Just my opinion, nothing personal intended towards PTB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean you necessarily. But I don't understand why the resurrection is the central belief of Christianity. It seems pretty irrelevant to the way one lives his life. I guess it's just semantics, but I would label anyone who believes they are following Jesus's message a Christian. Obviously what the message actually is is open to debate, so I guess I'm just saying that if you honestly believe you're a Christian, you're a Christian IMO.

[KUJustin]

I've never understood what's so odd about the most powerful entity in existence violating the "laws" of nature that he himself created.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that no-one has interacted seriously with my posts. Maybe I've stumbled on some forum war between Sklansky and PTB.

Anyway, I think I've made it pretty clear that Jesus himself believed in a) miracles b) his own resurrection c) the importance of believing in these. (if you want to debate issues of observer/textual reliability be my guest.)

These debates aren't new. Even in the first century people were claiming to be Christians but denying the resurrection. Here's what another re-formed Jew, the apostle Paul, had to say about the issue:

'Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. or if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.' (1 Corinthians 13 )

Paul's earlier comments in the passage make it clear he is talking about physical, actual, real, resurrection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these the "earlier comments in the passage"?

[ QUOTE ]
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it is pretty easy to read that as a spiritual resurrection. He appeared to them as a vision. Problem solved.

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never understood what's so odd about the most powerful entity in existence violating the "laws" of nature that he himself created.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can he find two cubes that add up to a third cube?

I bring that up only to show that it also wouldn't be odd if even he couldn't violate his own laws of nature.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never understood what's so odd about the most powerful entity in existence violating the "laws" of nature that he himself created.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can he find two cubes that add up to a third cube?

I bring that up only to show that it also wouldn't be odd if even he couldn't violate his own laws of nature.

[/ QUOTE ]
That different. If our universe is like a computer simulation then the laws of nature would be programed and easily broken the someone outside. That wouldn't suggest the power to do stuff like square the circle.

chez

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that no-one has interacted seriously with my posts. Maybe I've stumbled on some forum war between Sklansky and PTB.

Anyway, I think I've made it pretty clear that Jesus himself believed in a) miracles b) his own resurrection c) the importance of believing in these. (if you want to debate issues of observer/textual reliability be my guest.)

These debates aren't new. Even in the first century people were claiming to be Christians but denying the resurrection. Here's what another re-formed Jew, the apostle Paul, had to say about the issue:

'Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. or if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.' (1 Corinthians 13 )

Paul's earlier comments in the passage make it clear he is talking about physical, actual, real, resurrection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not denying the resurrection. I've emphasized its Reality repeatedly. Just like the story of Thomas, the comments of Paul are also attempts to explain its Reality. It is a Reality that does not depend on the magical rejuvenation of the corpse, regardless of what people have come to believe since.

PairTheBoard

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Meanwhile I can't help but wonder how guys like BluffThis, Not Ready and Txaq react when they read your quote above.


[/ QUOTE ]


John 20:
27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Can he find two cubes that add up to a third cube?

I bring that up only to show that it also wouldn't be odd if even he couldn't violate his own laws of nature


[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between math and natural law is the difference between logic and factual contingency.

But even so, if He could create the universe and all the laws within it, why can't there be a law that says He can manipulate His creation any way He likes? For instance, there's nothing logically or morally wrong about nullifying the law of gravity - not the same as trying to make a square circle.

[Archon_Wing]

If we were shown technology many thousands of years in the future it would seem like magic-- impossible given our knowledge of the world. I suppose you'd just have to assume we simply don't know as much as how the universe works as God does. This is of course assuming God exists. I'm sure many Christian scientists would have to deal with that.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't understand why the resurrection is the central belief of Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Resurrection is vital to the Religion and fullfills the Faith. In a world filled with hate, revenge, and selfishness, where the strong abuse the weak and he who Takes Gets, how can we believe that the meek will inherit? How can we believe that a life of Love isn't a sucker's play? Doesn't all the evidence around us show that Hate is stronger than love? Revenge more successful than forgiveness? The Selfish get ahead? The Old Testament anwered this by declaring God's vengence on the unrighteous.

Jesus transcended that paradigm, pointing out to us how we are all subject to such shortcomings in our hearts. His solution is the Spirit of Love which he declared would in the fullness of time prove triumphant over the spirit of hate. The Resurrection is Spiritual Proof of this truth. Even after nailing Love to the Cross and killing it in the flesh He rose from the grave. Love Lives. Hate cannot kill it. Love even conquers death. That's the Faith of Christianity.

PairTheBoard