3-betting the flop for protection - Page 5

Tickner · #41 05-30-2007, 02:05 AM

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Donk betting here with no real idea is really bad.

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Ah, I misread this line.

Yeah, my plan was to 3-bet if I got raised. Im posting to see if this is a better line than simply c/ring or c/cing since I considered all three.

blah-blah-blah · #42 05-30-2007, 02:07 AM

leading the flop is terrible because b3b with TT here is atrocious because the only things that continue are combo draws + higher overpairs and those have us in bad shape. also leading the flop then calling the raise leaves us open to a ton of scare cards on the turn. and bet/folding the flop seems really weak. thats why leading is bad.

Tickner · #43 05-30-2007, 02:13 AM

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leading the flop is terrible because b3b with TT here is atrocious because the only things that continue are combo draws + higher overpairs and those have us in bad shape. also leading the flop then calling the raise leaves us open to a ton of scare cards on the turn. and bet/folding the flop seems really weak. thats why leading is bad.

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I appreicate your input, but I disagree with all of it.

1. Who cares if he only continues with hands that have hands that have good equity vs us? I'm more interested in taking the pot right now, which will happen more than 0% of the time.

2. I don't think I'd ever bet/call.

3. Yes, bet/folding does seem weak...

blah-blah-blah · #44 05-30-2007, 02:16 AM

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leading the flop is terrible because b3b with TT here is atrocious because the only things that continue are combo draws + higher overpairs and those have us in bad shape. also leading the flop then calling the raise leaves us open to a ton of scare cards on the turn. and bet/folding the flop seems really weak. thats why leading is bad.

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I appreicate your input, but I disagree with all of it.

1. Who cares if he only continues with hands that have hands that have good equity vs us? I'm more interested in taking the pot right now, which will happen more than 0% of the time.

2. I don't think I'd ever bet/call.

3. Yes, bet/folding does seem weak...

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disagree w/ all of it? you agreed on #3 and #2 is not agreeing or disagreeing. and if you want to take the pot down on the flop I think c/r is better than b3b.

Tickner · #45 05-30-2007, 02:16 AM

maybe, but a b3b puts a lot more of his chips in the middle

SilentNoise · #46 05-30-2007, 02:18 AM

what hands are you ever betting the flop with? how do you play your combo draws here?

Tickner · #47 05-30-2007, 02:19 AM

I lead {combo draws, sets, overpairs, random bluffs with overcards cuz flop misses him waaaaaay too often}

delta k · #48 05-30-2007, 02:22 AM

Tickner I don't see how you're failing to grasp that fact that a B3B here never gets called by worse, thus it's a bluff with a hand that has SD value. (for reference, even AKss is a 55/45 favorite and he's obviously not folding that).

Put it this way- what do you think he's raising you with on the flop? If he'll raise AIR then great, shove, take pot. But you haven't made it clear anywhere in your posts that you think he is doing this with air- you don't even have an aggression factor posted.

As played all your doing is letting a drawing hand now call your 3bet, instead of having to call a shove. No way an open ender folds to your flop raise. And if you were planning on B/3bet and shoving the turn you would have to be blind not to see how massive a spew that is going to be (and how 99% of the time it's as a bluff, not for value (here bluff=protection, too, if we're getting him to fold UI overs on the turn that he somehow got there with))

blah-blah-blah · #49 05-30-2007, 02:28 AM

i think he folds to a c/r more than b3b simply because he is more likely to c-bet with air than raise someone donking into him, with air. b3b would need him to fold less because more of his chips get in the middle as you stated but you also commit the rest of your chips when he shoves.

Tickner · #50 05-30-2007, 02:30 AM

Okay, you might be right with that post.

But I want to make something clear, even if it doesnt apply here.

Just because he doesnt call with anything worse, doesn't automatically make it a bluff. And even if you want to argue semantics and call it a bluff - so be it. But that doesnt change the fact that theres a ton of scarey turn cards, and taking the pot NOW (or getting him to put in max dollars with drawing hands) is of vital importance.

Our fold equity in a pot like this is significant, which is actually a big part of my agrument.