Call this down? San Jose 20/40

[Lester_M]

It would be a mistake to call this down. You got yourself in a bit of a jam, and while the preflop raise was good, all three of your advantages have failed you.
You played a hand that draws well, and you missed, thus also reversing the good implied odds you'd have had in this multi-way pot.
You also raised to gain position, and got checkraised, losing initiative on both large streets.
It's time to make a decision: Play for the best hand, or minimize your loss.
Calling down is a clear mistake, because you have a hitchhiker that is obviously drawing to clubs and charging him the maximum to see the river is your only edge left in this hand.
If there is any way that your pair could be good, you need to raise here. It will cost you the same as calling down, because it's the same 40 you'd have spent on the river, and if your opponent plays back at you, you can take him off of the semi-bluff, and let go, same price.
If he just calls, you will probably get a free showdown, unless you catch a non-club Jack, which you can bet again.
If a club hits and your limper comes alive, at least you played for maximum value, and should not call the river.
In this situation, I would lean mostly towards folding the turn and raising the rest of the time.
To me, calling here is just like giving up, but spewing off chips in the process.
(plus anytime i've got a player putting money in bad, I lick my chops... there should be enough profit in there for you and Hank, in the long run.)

[Joe Tall]

Call all day and 2x on Sunday. Too many retards c/r flush draws here, so many, that I've started 3-betting a bit more than I ever would.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
It's really, really sad that there's discussion about raising PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

you post strategy like 6 times a year and this is the best you can come up with?

[SNOWBALL]

yes, call down. You're frequently up against a worse queen, or you outs against 2 pair, and the caller in between often has a flush draw.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a mistake to call this down. You got yourself in a bit of a jam, and while the preflop raise was good, all three of your advantages have failed you.
You played a hand that draws well, and you missed, thus also reversing the good implied odds you'd have had in this multi-way pot.
You also raised to gain position, and got checkraised, losing initiative on both large streets.
It's time to make a decision: Play for the best hand, or minimize your loss.
Calling down is a clear mistake, because you have a hitchhiker that is obviously drawing to clubs and charging him the maximum to see the river is your only edge left in this hand.
If there is any way that your pair could be good, you need to raise here. It will cost you the same as calling down, because it's the same 40 you'd have spent on the river, and if your opponent plays back at you, you can take him off of the semi-bluff, and let go, same price.
If he just calls, you will probably get a free showdown, unless you catch a non-club Jack, which you can bet again.
If a club hits and your limper comes alive, at least you played for maximum value, and should not call the river.
In this situation, I would lean mostly towards folding the turn and raising the rest of the time.
To me, calling here is just like giving up, but spewing off chips in the process.
(plus anytime i've got a player putting money in bad, I lick my chops... there should be enough profit in there for you and Hank, in the long run.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post Lester. I like your take on playing the turn.

Vehn's wrong about the importance of the pf raise. Compared to playing the big bet streets, it means little.

The money is won/lost post flop in holdem. Mostly on the turn/river.

There's good debate over raising pf. But it has little to do with QJs and everything to do with everything else that helps you win money in poker.

[Diana Ross Fan]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a mistake to call this down. You got yourself in a bit of a jam, and while the preflop raise was good, all three of your advantages have failed you.
You played a hand that draws well, and you missed, thus also reversing the good implied odds you'd have had in this multi-way pot.
You also raised to gain position, and got checkraised, losing initiative on both large streets.
It's time to make a decision: Play for the best hand, or minimize your loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes both of those involve calling down.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down is a clear mistake, because you have a hitchhiker that is obviously drawing to clubs and charging him the maximum to see the river is your only edge left in this hand.
If there is any way that your pair could be good, you need to raise here. It will cost you the same as calling down, because it's the same 40 you'd have spent on the river, and if your opponent plays back at you, you can take him off of the semi-bluff, and let go, same price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it over the weekend. I don't like a free showdown raise 3-handed because there are a lot of rivers that will get checked through anyway. You might get a free showdown with a flat call, depending on Hank and the limper.
[ QUOTE ]


If he just calls, you will probably get a free showdown, unless you catch a non-club Jack, which you can bet again.
If a club hits and your limper comes alive, at least you played for maximum value, and should not call the river.
In this situation, I would lean mostly towards folding the turn and raising the rest of the time.
To me, calling here is just like giving up, but spewing off chips in the process.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding is really giving up, a call is not spewing.

[Diana Ross Fan]

[ QUOTE ]

Good post Lester. I like your take on playing the turn.

Vehn's wrong about the importance of the pf raise. Compared to playing the big bet streets, it means little.

The money is won/lost post flop in holdem. Mostly on the turn/river.

There's good debate over raising pf. But it has little to do with QJs and everything to do with everything else that helps you win money in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

So far the debate about calling has been separated from the tiff over the pf raise. They are part of the same equation though. As black ashtma pointed out, raising pf made the pot much larger. Folding the best hand is very costly here.