TT v squeeze 100bb

[Josh.]

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I would think a small 4bet is better than a shove, because it'll get some weaker hands into his range. However, if he has AQ I guess we'd rather he folded than stacked off. So, shove is fine if you're into that sort of thing. I hate to stack off in a spot like this, but calling oop is pretty rough too. I don't think folding is terrible. If you can put him on a range that says shoving is +EV, thats obviously a better idea.

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i was curious about AQ myself, so i ran it earlier, and decreased fold equity is basically offset by increased equity. if shoving TT is neutral-EV vs a call range of AA-JJ, AK, then adding AQ costs us $2

[aislephive]

Yeah I agree with Parlay, 4 betting here is probably around nuetral EV, given that AK is such a big part of his range and he is certainly calling a shove with it, occasionally 99/AQ too but obviously not too often. Your read is that he is aggro so this is definitely a spot for somebody aggro to squeeze with a pretty wide range to put pressure on both you and the cold-caller. Obviously the more times he is 3 bet/folding the better for us. If he routinely 3bets AT+ and KQ/KJ, medium pairs etc, then I think this becomes a very obvious +EV shove since there is already a lot of dead money in the pot now.

[BobboFitos]

if villain is only calling with AK, AA, KK, QQ (2.6% of hands) and you *think* he's squeezing with a broad range - ignoring the cold caller (Who I suppose could wake up with a big hand, I sometimes cold call the above range if there is a habitual squeezer in the blinds) what hands are we incorrect to shove on? (That we would open ourselves)

This may surprise you. Also, it may surprise you to learn the correct frequency of the squeezers, and why they really should never be "squeezing" with the plan of folding something like JJ. (And most don't).

[jlocdog]

Bobbo,

Why without a doubt do we want an overcall here? I am aware that we almost always have him beat but won't the combination of two sets of hands lower are overall equity in this pot? I mean if we face AK and AQs then we have yet another card/board to dodge. Or does the extra money that gets put in the pot compensate us for our reduced equity?

edit-I do agree we want an overcall. I just want to clarify for myself why.... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[aislephive]

Oh so for me, 4bet shove > fold > call.

I'm sure calling is a viable option for some, but I wouldn't have a good enough idea on what to do postflop for it to be an option I'd want to go with.

If I think this player is pretty solid and doesn't get out of line at all I like folding more, but shoving is still ok.

[Josh.]

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no, you're misunderstanding josh. that villain is clearly making a mistake, even a small one, and the squeezer (and you) will benefit from it.

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this is an oversimplification. oop and in the squeeze position (acting between PFR and the other guy), the overcall puts you in an AWFUL position. if button bets, you have to respect it, and if he wants a free card, you give one to 2 hands.



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and my point about pf... you cant play for set value, because of that you want more dead money (even though it's not truly dead) to increase your actual equity in the pot. if you always took it HU, you may want to jack it back up pf, mainly because it means you're stacking off anyway, you dont want him to improve and win a sizeable pot when he wouldnt have, obviously unless he will fire with air at the pot (which some do NOT) when they miss. alot of variables there but what im trying to say is you're playing for best hand equity pf but you'd rather not seal it off if you could encourage a mistake from the last guy, even though it will make postflop somewhat murky and difficult.

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postflop playability is more important than actual equity in this spot imo. TT doesn't play that poorly hu in a 3-bet pot, but 3 ways in the worst relative and absolute position, you're just [censored]. when the middle guy calls the 3-bet, you definitely are entitled to a large % of the money he just put in, but it costs you shittons of money postflop which prevents you from actually adding that % to your stack

[BobboFitos]

good post josh -

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3 ways in the worst relative and absolute position, you're just [censored].

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actually, the beauty of taking the pot 3ways for the big price preflop is now position doesnt matter, because we're essentially "all in" on the flop.

[Josh.]

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if villain is only calling with AK, AA, KK, QQ (2.6% of hands) and you *think* he's squeezing with a broad range - ignoring the cold caller (Who I suppose could wake up with a big hand, I sometimes cold call the above range if there is a habitual squeezer in the blinds) what hands are we incorrect to shove on? (That we would open ourselves)

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once you've resqueezed him 2 or 3 times, obviously he'll loosen up. but the first time you resqueeze, he'd have to be a retard to call with AJs. i don't quite get what you're saying but i figure you're saying something like "only calling these hands is exploitable." the first time someone 4-bet shoves it makes sense to give them some credit

but for our hand, doesn't much matter. if it's close with TT, then it's probably marginally bad with 76s. if it's a slam dunk shove with TT, then nearly ATC will be profitable. i still don't understand what you're getting at though. that makes picking your spots of supreme importance here. you're much better shoving 76s against a convicted squeezer than TT against someone whose range you're unsure of



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Also, it may surprise you to learn the correct frequency of the squeezers, and why they really should never be "squeezing" with the plan of folding something like JJ. (And most don't).

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frequency for what? squeezing? and i already wrote in the thread that no one folds jacks anymore after squeezing.

i still really don't understand your post though

[BobboFitos]

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Bobbo,

Why without a doubt do we want an overcall here? I am aware that we almost always have him beat but won't the combination of two sets of hands lower are overall equity in this pot? I mean if we face AK and AQs then we have yet another card/board to dodge. Or does the extra money that gets put in the pot compensate us for our reduced equity?

edit-I do agree we want an overcall. I just want to clarify for myself why.... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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it actually simplifies the hand -

think tournaments: When you dont have much in your stack, postflop is somewhat irrelevant, so when you are fairly confident (and that confidence factor based on the odds here is around 60%, which even if we include villains "stackoff" range to include JJ and AQ, thats just ~4.5%, which means to satiate that he can NOT be squeeze/folding MORE then the range aisle said he thought (the broadways and mid pairs, basically) that you have the best hand you'd rather lump other people in. - when this big pot is won it's sorta raw gambling with an edge.

basically, think about if you had AA here. You'd want to call to get an overcall (actually, now this is closer, somewhat oddly) TT is AA 60% of the time and 72o 40% of the time, if that makes sense.

[BobboFitos]

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if villain is only calling with AK, AA, KK, QQ (2.6% of hands) and you *think* he's squeezing with a broad range - ignoring the cold caller (Who I suppose could wake up with a big hand, I sometimes cold call the above range if there is a habitual squeezer in the blinds) what hands are we incorrect to shove on? (That we would open ourselves)

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once you've resqueezed him 2 or 3 times, obviously he'll loosen up. but the first time you resqueeze, he'd have to be a retard to call with AJs. i don't quite get what you're saying but i figure you're saying something like "only calling these hands is exploitable." the first time someone 4-bet shoves it makes sense to give them some credit


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no kidding it's exploitable, but the point is villains action is much more exploitable.
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but for our hand, doesn't much matter. if it's close with TT, then it's probably marginally bad with 76s. if it's a slam dunk shove with TT, then nearly ATC will be profitable. i still don't understand what you're getting at though.


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this is pretty clear

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Also, it may surprise you to learn the correct frequency of the squeezers, and why they really should never be "squeezing" with the plan of folding something like JJ. (And most don't).

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frequency for what? squeezing? and i already wrote in the thread that no one folds jacks anymore after squeezing.

i still really don't understand your post though

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then read it again - the point is that vs some raw shoving will show profit, but calling shows more profit: we like being squeezed with TT. if we had 86s, sometimes shoving shows profit, calling generally does not, but now we dont like being squeezed, but we can still turn it into a win for us.