NYU Dave v. NYU Dave 100/200 NL: Two hands.

[ike]

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arent you scared cops or someone else will rob you playing with this much cash?

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i've never played at one of the ny clubs but i would assume they've paid off the right people for the cops to stay away and are run by the sort of people you don't want to rob.

[GTL]

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arent you scared cops or someone else will rob you playing with this much cash?

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i've never played at one of the ny clubs but i would assume they've paid off the right people for the cops to stay away and are run by the sort of people you don't want to rob.

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i haven't played in these games either, but i think it is simpler than this. I bet no cash changes hands at the games. i think these are invite only affairs, and you aren't invited unless you are trusted enough to settle the debts at a later time. hell, they might even write a check.

[fatgirl_lover]

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hey in hand 1 i think you call the river. given that he calls preflop with any 2 cards, i think he is just using a scary board to raise big. hand 2 i'd fold river, also the call preflop is a big big mistake not a little one.

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i agree...in retrospect...the call preflop is awful. a few of the people i talk through hands whose opinions i respected most said that even in a 3 handed deepstack game it's a huge leak...

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unless the opponent is playing signifncantly bad, and OOP i'd say that the fact that you are deepstack makes 86o call worse of a call if anything. btw please don't forget to post results in the thread b

[riverboatking]

i think you might be slightly results oriented...
i think a key point to this hand is that you didn't C bet the flop.
right away he knows you don't have a set cuz you guys are too deep to do anything stupid like slowplaying sets.
he's got to put you on a marginal hand that you think has some decent showdown value + chance to improve and you would like to see another card hence the check behind.

if you had air you bet, and if you had a monster you bet, but by checking behind (which you say you have been doing very rarely) he's able to narrow your hand down considerably.

however i think from his perspective your more likely to have a weak jack, a good 9, or an overpair then a 3, as with bottom pair you'd be more likely to bet figuring the times you take it down on the flop will be more profitable then the times you improve your hand to win at showdown, therefore i think his range for turn+river play is much wider then duck laid out, and i think its a really good spot for him to set up a nice river CR bluff.

i def think you have to call the river, he's gonna show up there with a worse 3/AA-QQ/bluff enough to make the call profitable, and folding a hand like this in a spot like this in a 3 handed game is just not gonna fly.

as for my assertion that he will also show up with AA/KK/QQ a decent amount of the time the fact that he had JJ in this spot reinforces this notion, as he was clearly playing to trap you OOP with what he knew to be the best hand preflop and didn't want to give away the value of his hand by 3 betting vs what he knows is such a wide open raising range.

so if he plays JJ like this he will DEFINITELY play AA/KK/QQ this way and a good player will not be scared to CR the river in this spot for value with an overpair as that 3 on the turn looks like a perfect card.

don't be results oriented, if you won this hand and he had AA you'd be posting asking if you played the hand too weak and should have shoved the river.

edit: i fold hand 2 90% of the time.

[afadeyi]

i think you must fold the river, and you are right to have checked the flop.

[Greeksquared]

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Also, and this is someone no one commented on, his donk turn bet/calling of the raise should have tipped me off that he was trapping (hence, he was inducing a raise). In any case, I literally thought for about 5-8 minutes, and finally called. He had JJJ.

2) On this hand, this was a super ez fold. When he calls the pot-sized flop cr, and he calls the turn bet, he is not floating. He either has a combo draw, or straight draw. I guess there is a chance he has a one pair hand like KK,AA,JJ, so I'm not sure if betting is preferred here, but I think I like to check, with the intention of check folding. Also, his river bet size is super scary here, since it's so much in the "value range."



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You seem to be completely results oriented in most all of your posts. You never fail to mention how easy a decision was after the fact. Could you really have smelled out his 1/3 pot bet in hand one as the virtual nuts?

[dlpnyc21]

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i think you might be slightly results oriented...
i think a key point to this hand is that you didn't C bet the flop.
right away he knows you don't have a set cuz you guys are too deep to do anything stupid like slowplaying sets.
he's got to put you on a marginal hand that you think has some decent showdown value + chance to improve and you would like to see another card hence the check behind.

if you had air you bet, and if you had a monster you bet, but by checking behind (which you say you have been doing very rarely) he's able to narrow your hand down considerably.

however i think from his perspective your more likely to have a weak jack, a good 9, or an overpair then a 3, as with bottom pair you'd be more likely to bet figuring the times you take it down on the flop will be more profitable then the times you improve your hand to win at showdown, therefore i think his range for turn+river play is much wider then duck laid out, and i think its a really good spot for him to set up a nice river CR bluff.

i def think you have to call the river, he's gonna show up there with a worse 3/AA-QQ/bluff enough to make the call profitable, and folding a hand like this in a spot like this in a 3 handed game is just not gonna fly.

as for my assertion that he will also show up with AA/KK/QQ a decent amount of the time the fact that he had JJ in this spot reinforces this notion, as he was clearly playing to trap you OOP with what he knew to be the best hand preflop and didn't want to give away the value of his hand by 3 betting vs what he knows is such a wide open raising range.

so if he plays JJ like this he will DEFINITELY play AA/KK/QQ this way and a good player will not be scared to CR the river in this spot for value with an overpair as that 3 on the turn looks like a perfect card.

don't be results oriented, if you won this hand and he had AA you'd be posting asking if you played the hand too weak and should have shoved the river.

edit: i fold hand 2 90% of the time.

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of the three hands you mentioned, one of them made a boat on the river (qqq). so he has to have two hands that i beat, and a i lose to k10, 108, and any boat. also, it makes zero sense here for him to make that big of a river cr as a bluff (give he is out of position and given his donk turn/lead call). it's much more likely he was drawing or had a made hand on the turn. espeically from what he knows about HIS image, he knows he will get looked up very light so he has to bet very big on his big hands to compensate. the reason i called was not because i thought he was bluffing, combined with his live antics, i thought there was maybe 10% chance he was bluffing (but it's probably less). i called because i thought he could be value raising worse trips. however, i think that's a mistake as well. it's not results, it's just the logic of the hand. many hands are a lot easier to work out after the fact than they are in the heat of the moment. adding all the pieces together, he doesn't do this enough with the two hands you mentioned to merit a call. however, the two hands you mentioned are certainly part of his range, so thanks for pointing them out.

[dlpnyc21]

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edit: i fold hand 2 90% of the time.

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can you explain your logic on this one? i'm v. curious. also, do you play the hand differently on earlier streets? thank you...

[riverboatking]

dude you make a lot of posts and then after you get feedback say things like "well actually this is really all he could have because of this and that" and all kinds of specific reads that no one but you could know.
and thats fine, reads are a big part of the game, however if you want to foster good discussion about how to think about the game and analzye a hand from start to finish that kind of stuff is useless and i think thats why some people seem annoyed by your posts/tone.

i personally dont know you but i think you post interesting hands, and people i respect have a good opinion of you so i think you're probably a pretty decent guy.

but you may come off better if you dont make posts and then after people take time to respond you come back with all this talk about how this was actually extremely obv that he had this exact hand and only this hand based on all this stuff i knew about him as it makes it kind of like well then whats the point of posting the hand?

i made my post after i saw the results (obv) so my only point was to demonstrate that there is good logic and reasoning for making a river call based on the way the entire hand played out, and to say that he can only have a boat or a straight in this spot i think is very unrealistic ESPECALLY given your description of the villian.

a big part of learning how to play poker is understanding not only how your opponents actions affect the hand ranges but also how your actions affect hand ranges, and the fact that you check behind on the flop is a HUGE FACTOR in this hand and something that players trying to improve their game should pay attention to and understand how its going to change the rest of the hand.

you C bet at least 70% of the time you say, so checking behind in this spot immediately changes the whole aspect of the hand and its something neither you nor anyone bothered to mention.

edit: and i mention more then three hands...i include worse 3's/bluffs/and AA-QQ i was just highlighting AA/QQ since no one else had included those hands in his possible range.

and ps: i'm not trying to hate on you at all in this post, like i said i think you are probably a very decent guy, and i def. like your posts...just trying to help you come across better in certain spots so you get good/positive feedback.

[cts]

I def agree with RBK that you are too results oriented Dave, ie getting mad at yourself for losing 100BB with ur KK to my AA the other day, these hands etc. Love your live posts though, hopefully I'll be able to get to NYC soon.