What do you think about Middle Eastern relations?

[gonebroke2]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a senselss debate on the history of the geography of the Levant, so I won't go into detal/address your position point by point, but
Mr.Crab, your argument is a ridiculous concontion of Zionist propaganda talking points. Also, I'm Jewish and not opposed to an Israeli state, so don't take this as someone diametrically opposed to your beliefs attacking you. If you would like an explaination of why, feel free to PM me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. He is spreading nothing but lies. The Arabs and Jews lived in peace in Palestine before the Zionists took over.

[Goater]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

The settlements have not significantly expanded since Oslo and the government is actively preventing growth outside of already existing settlements.



The settlements have approximately doubled in population size since Oslo.


[/ QUOTE ]

In population size yes. Absolutely not in physical size - its my mistake, I should have been clearer. The land settelments are built upon makes up approximately 2% of land in the West Bank and approx. 80% of the settlement population live in settlements contiguous or extremely close to the 67 border. Much of the population growth is natural growth (birth rates tend to be relatively high, 4.8/female in 2003 - dont have more up to date stats) and within the boundaries of pre existing settlements. Some "natural growth" of the physical size of the settlements has of course occured. I agree that some other growth has occured.

[ QUOTE ]
13 years of representation by the party that rcognised Israel and supported a two state solution got them nowhwere. Even when Arafat, whom Israel blamed for everything, was replaced by the ultra-compliant Abbas, there was no movement - not even basic negotiations. Not to mention terrible Fatah misgovernment. Hardly surprising that Palestinains opted for change of tack - what would be the point in voting for Fatah whe it had a terrible track record on both gaining them a state and was absurdly corrupt and falling apart?

Even then, I remember polls showing that a third or so of people voting for Hamas still favoured a two state soltution (and Hamas actually won the popular vote by a very small margin, while most voter of Fatah can be presumed to have supported a 2-state solution). Futhermore, support for a two state soltution was much higher when it actually looked like a realistic prospect.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe that Arafat and Fatah supported a 2 state solution, please see my previous post - I dont think they did. Please show me any concrete steps that Fatah made to prepare the population for a 2 state solution - after all, the population had been indoctrinated to fanatically support Israels' destruction for decades before. What was done to change this in the education of children, the media, religious circles? Its widely documented that the education of children to see martyrdom as the highest calling, the total insistance on the right of return, etc... was actually what happened.

"Hardly surprising that Palestinains opted for change of tack"...

The change was nothing to do with the lack of a political solution and Abbas was and is so weak to be insignificant. And what a change of tack! Just as Israelis were opting for Olmerts Kadima, elected on a platform of withdrawals, the Palestinians decided Hamas was where their future lay. Ironic. Still, if thats their choice, thats their choice. They will have to live with it.

Hamas won 76 seats as opposed to Fatahs 43. Not close.

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
However, it will take a lot to convince Israelis living close to any future borders to support the withdrawal of settlement blocks that represent a physical barrier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, step back and think this through. It sounds like a proclamation from a press secretary who never takes questions.

Civilian housing is not a buffer!! The expansion of settlements reduces the security of Israelis by increasing the border. The settlements are a jigsaw on the West Bank, creating a very long interface for mischief.

[ QUOTE ]
The settlements have not significantly expanded since Oslo

[/ QUOTE ]

Even more important than the inaccuracy that Nicky points out is this: any expansion at all demonstrates Israel is not serious about peace. If the Israelis favoring a real settlement had political power, the settlements would be shrinking to prove Israel is serious about peace (something no one in the world believes except US and Israeli Zionists).

[ QUOTE ]
There is plenty of Palestine to become a state and Israel has shown itself willing to make sacrifices and withdraw large numbers of people should a genuine deal be possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not the number of hectares that is so significant -- it is whether the Palestinians would achieve sovereignty. Without control of internal roads and borders, they have none. You have not addressed this cantonization issue.

The withdrawal would be significant if it were accompanied by a freeze on the WB. The wall seals it. The wall makes the cantonization of the WB literally set in stone. Growing settlements and a wall are absolute proof of Israeli intentions. If it were a security wall, it would follow the green line -- the short distance between points -- rather than reaching out fingers here and there to seize the water and other resources.

[ QUOTE ]
Fatah were never - NEVER - going to agree to a peace deal with Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet Fatah kept making deals over and over, that were far short of a state. Arafat's whole political gamble was on achieving two states, he was desperate even for a bad deal. But the 90% offer was so insulting that even he could not survive if he accepted it. It denied Palestine even of control of its water. Fatah gambled on peace and never got a state. Arafat settled for a short term as king of graft, rather than holding out on recognition until Israel was ready for genuine mutual recognition.

And this business about Hamas committed to the destruction of Israel is dogma. The leadership has openly acknowledged that Israel is not going away -- they know it cannot be militarily defeated. Why worry about rhetoric they CANNOT carry out? If the Palestinians get a real state and the occupation ends, there will be desperately few still tilting at windmills. The idea that it's the cowboys in danger of being destroyed by the Indians is totally bassackwards. It takes powerful minds to obscure the obvious. It would be comical if it was not the foundation of Israeli propaganda. The conflict stems from the destruction of Palestine, not the other way around.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
I was initially opposed to him speaking at the University - now im really not sure. Yes, he did make a fool out of himself, but he also got to spout his ridiculous propaganda, especially regarding the holocaust. His disgusting comments regarding such an issue - especially as he openly preaches his intention to commit another one - should bar him from such a stage. (actually, he degrades the significance of the holocaust BECAUSE he wishes another one, but anyway...)

Anyone who is surprised by his comments regarding homosexuals, for example, is simply not fully educated re him and his regime. If it takes such a stage to expose this aspect of his regime to many people, i suppose its a good thing, but i would be happier if people knew these things anyway.

It is clear that he sees such opportunities (including his request to visit ground zero) as a chance to ridicule the US and get his propaganda out and im not sure the US should assist him.

For the record, I dont believe this is a free speach issue at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its obviously not a free speech issue. First, he's not an American citizen and has no Constitutional right, and second even if he were generally entitled to protection under the Constitution not all speech is protected, and his speech could be considered hate speech, seditious or incitement.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
And this business about Hamas committed to the destruction of Israel is dogma. The leadership has openly acknowledged that Israel is not going away -- they know it cannot be militarily defeated. Why worry about rhetoric they CANNOT carry out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possible scenario:

1. Iran gets The Bomb

2. Iran gives The Bomb to its sponsored surrogate, Hamas.

3. Hamas carries out its genocidal religious imperative using The Bomb

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
Possible scenario:

1. Iran gets The Bomb

2. Iran gives The Bomb to its sponsored surrogate, Hamas.

3. Hamas carries out its genocidal religious imperative using The Bomb

[/ QUOTE ]

Bollocks. Deterrence, mutually assured destruction, works.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Possible scenario:

1. Iran gets The Bomb

2. Iran gives The Bomb to its sponsored surrogate, Hamas.

3. Hamas carries out its genocidal religious imperative using The Bomb

[/ QUOTE ]

Bollocks. Deterrence, mutually assured destruction, works.

[/ QUOTE ]

when all parties are rational. Religious zealots are not rational

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Possible scenario:

1. Iran gets The Bomb

2. Iran gives The Bomb to its sponsored surrogate, Hamas.

3. Hamas carries out its genocidal religious imperative using The Bomb

[/ QUOTE ]

Bollocks. Deterrence, mutually assured destruction, works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Works for suicide bombers, too.

The leader of Hamas would never consider putting an A-bomb in the trunk of his car and driving into downtown Tel Aviv, would he? Nah, never in a million years.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Possible scenario:

1. Iran gets The Bomb

2. Iran gives The Bomb to its sponsored surrogate, Hamas.

3. Hamas carries out its genocidal religious imperative using The Bomb

[/ QUOTE ]

Bollocks. Deterrence, mutually assured destruction, works.

[/ QUOTE ]

when all parties are rational. Religious zealots are not rational

[/ QUOTE ]

That would explain why the irrational Iranians have supplied Hamas with all those chemical weapons they've been making since the Iran/Iraq war. Oh..wait a minute. Well, they've only had the weapons for 20+ years. I'm sure they're irrational need to assure their total destruction will kick in any minute.

[Goater]

OK, last post on this subject.

[ QUOTE ]
Civilian housing is not a buffer!! The expansion of settlements reduces the security of Israelis by increasing the border. The settlements are a jigsaw on the West Bank, creating a very long interface for mischief.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree and neither do many security experts in Israel or elsewhere. I know you will say that this view is political, but there are many, many reasons why settlements effectively buffer Israeli cities. The huge increase in kassam attacks after the Gaza withdrawal is one display but there are many more. The bulk of settlement blocks are not a "jigsaw" and in any case, a final settlement will have to address this problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Even more important than the inaccuracy that Nicky points out is this: any expansion at all demonstrates Israel is not serious about peace. If the Israelis favoring a real settlement had political power, the settlements would be shrinking to prove Israel is serious about peace (something no one in the world believes except US and Israeli Zionists).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have addressed what you consider an inaccuracy. And again, natural growth is inevitable and unstoppable. More people are being born than dying. The growth is largely in population, not area. In any case, Oslo did not specify a settlement freeze. The area is "disputed" due to its occupation in a defensive war (again, im sure you dont even agree with that statement). As no Palestinian state ever existed on that land, 2 people "dispute" it. I have already stated that I support a genuine 2 state solution.

Israel has repeatedly demonstrated real commitment (eg: Gaza withdrawal). I dont think you realise, despite your views, how genuinely painful and difficult this was for the government and the country. Its hard to imagine that just over 15 years ago, the average Israeli never even considered leaving these territories.

The Israelis favouring a settlement do have real political power, thats why they voted Rabin, Barak and Kadima. You believe that a settlement has not occured due to Israeli objection, I believe it is because of Palestinian objection. We have already discussed this point. Im not sure what sinister group you believe holds all the power in Israel, but you are seeing things that are not there.

The "cantonisation" issue would be addressed and resolved in a final settlement and I disagree with your description of the Oslo and preceeding plans in this regard.

[ QUOTE ]
The wall seals it. The wall makes the cantonization of the WB literally set in stone. Growing settlements and a wall are absolute proof of Israeli intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering when you would bring up the "wall". Its a temporary measure (disliked by the settlers by the way) and was reluctantly constructed after waves of suicide bombers murdered over a thousand israeli civilians inside Israel proper. Israeli courts have repeatedly upheld challenges to the route and forced changes.

[ QUOTE ]
If it were a security wall, it would follow the green line -- the short distance between points -- rather than reaching out fingers here and there to seize the water and other resources.

[/ QUOTE ]

This myth can be repeated a thousand times, but it will never be true. I wish the wall wasnt necessary, but after a thousand dead civilians in hotels, pizza shops, cafes and busses, it is. Do you have another explanation as to why there were virtually no suicide attacks out of Gaza (basically walled) and why the rate of successful attacks from the west bank has decreased so dramatically after the wall and continued security measures by the IDF (despite a steady stream of attempts)? No military solution eh?

[ QUOTE ]
But the 90% offer was so insulting

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds really insulting! In the real world, the Palestinians are never going to get 100% - thats why they call it negotiation. I have addressed why I think Arafat never wanted a 2 state solution - I await your answers as to what he did to prepare his people for such a compromise after decades of commitment to the whole of Israel being Palestinian.

[ QUOTE ]
And this business about Hamas committed to the destruction of Israel is dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy for you to say. For those that live there it is a serious threat. After conventional warfare proved spectacularly ineffective at driving the Jews into the sea, the staged plan was formed. With events in Syria, Lebanon and Iran proceeding as they are, Israels existential problems are hardly a daydream.

[ QUOTE ]
If the Palestinians get a real state and the occupation ends, there will be desperately few still tilting at windmills.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But i dont think that Fatah or Hamas want (or ever wanted) a 2 state solution and therefore their whole raison d' etre would have been at odds with a solution. From my perspective, you are saying that once Hamas or Fatah make a deal that is totally opposed to their very essence, there would be noone seriously advocating/working towards the destruction of Israel. Thats why they would never make a deal. (By the way, I do think that there are elements of fatah who would now want and follow through with a settlement, but they are so utterly weak and lacking in pulic support that this is a virtual impossibility).

[ QUOTE ]
The conflict stems from the destruction of Palestine, not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean "the land that was previously Jordanian/Egyptian"?

As I said, thats the last post I will make in this thread about this subject, but I do genuinely appreciate you taking the time to have this discussion and the way it has been conducted. Cheers.