Do you think bots are cheating?

[milesdyson]

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In short, when programs begin to have the ability to actively make real time suggestions about how we might profitably make use of collected data, let alone the ability to actually do so themselves (semi)autonomously, the line has clearly been crossed.

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Great post.

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sorry, can't agree with any of this. i'm going to repeat a lot of what others have said, in an effort (maybe a futile one) to get my point across. i find this interesting and have not seen a really good argument for the other side.

let's say i have an infinite time bank for each decision. i take the time to review every single one of villain's hands. i go through to find the frequencies he bets/checkraises with hand X, hand Y, etc. based on this information, i find a semi-strong weighted range based on his actions thus far. i then calculate my equity vs. this weighted range. when i have this value, i determine whether it is high enough to continue given the pot size.

the only thing that stops me from doing this is i do not have the time. why can i not use a tool to help me calculate this number, in the same way i use a tool to help me calculate villain's preflop raise %, wtsd, watsd, w$wsf, aggression factor, etc.? i do not have the time to do this myself, but poker sites allow me to use pokertracker and pahud to have this information at my disposal. without these tools, i would have no idea about these numbers, because i would not have the time to come up with them on my own. now why can't i use a tool that analyzes these same hand histories to come up with another number? that is all a bot needs to do. it does not understand poker. it uses legally obtained information to spit out a number, exactly the same way pokertracker does. why is it that the nature of the number it spits out makes a difference? simply because it gets you closer than any other one to making the right decision? i don't get it. once you allow outside programs to evaluate player statistics based on hand histories, you're already on the path toward coming up with a final answer.

[pokerdude@ub]

There is a very clear line that all the sites follow:

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- If a program automates your play (that is if it hits the fold,call,raise buttons for you), it IS a bot and it is illegal.

- If it does not hit the fold, call, raise buttons for you, it is NOT a bot.
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So you can have the most advanced EV generator in the world (this is 100% legal) that can tell you what to do, it just CAN'T DO IT for you.

[MarkD]

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There is a very clear line that all the sites follow:

=================
- If a program automates your play (that is if it hits the fold,call,raise buttons for you), it IS a bot and it is illegal.

- If it does not hit the fold, call, raise buttons for you, it is NOT a bot.
==================================

So you can have the most advanced EV generator in the world (this is 100% legal) that can tell you what to do, it just CAN'T DO IT for you.

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True - yet absolutely retarded.

Miles,

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once you allow outside programs to evaluate player statistics based on hand histories, you're already on the path toward coming up with a final answer.


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Yes, you are on the path, but it's still very grey. Your brain still has to process the information and make a decision and because you are human you are prone to human error and bias's and misinterpretation. You are also prone to psychological influences. All of this is a lot different than having a computer spit out the correct EV decision based on very high level understanding of the game programmed into it.

Of course the computer does not understand poker, it only understands binary, but that's not the point. The point is that in essense you have created the hypothetical infinite time situation you outline above and have removed the human component. The programmer has infinite time to create the perfect EV calculator and it will spit out the correct answer fast enough for you to act on it. It will always be right and you, the player, no longer have to think. That's what crosses the line for me - elinating the thought.

To me, an EV calculator would be cheating exactly as a bot is cheating and it's because you have eliminated the human mind from the game.

[RIIT]

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There is a very clear line that all the sites follow:

=================
- If a program automates your play (that is if it hits the fold,call,raise buttons for you), it IS a bot and it is illegal.

- If it does not hit the fold, call, raise buttons for you, it is NOT a bot.
==================================

So you can have the most advanced EV generator in the world (this is 100% legal) that can tell you what to do, it just CAN'T DO IT for you.

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Yes that's the way it is. But the distinction is entirely irrelevant and out of sync with the natural internet environment; the quality of the poker decisions is what matters most within the poker economy; who or what clicks the actual buttons is a non-issue. But the general poker playing public has been duped into believing that a piece of software that can click a button is somehow the equivalent of an unexploitable player.

To answer the OP, if you build your own automated poker playing system that plays according to your wishes then you're not doing anything that goes against the natural environment of internet poker regardless of what anybody says including anybody here on 2+2 or anybody at your site for that matter.

Any site that would demonize your actions (while embracing the actions of a HUD/calc player) is not much different than any 1950's era "whites only" eatery or bar.

It is backward thinking to expect that none of your opponents should not be autoplayers in an environment where computers outnumber humans 2 to 1.

RIIT

[6471849653]

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If it breaks the rules of an online poker site, Dave, it's cheating.

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That's always the case everywhere, the rest being about "philosophy."

I don't think they will allow any bot play. Some have long been wanting a simple program that folds the hands one never plays; then if the rules say it's illegal, it's illegal, though it could be worth a shot as it's annoying when multitabling to do all that folding when the bot could do it. The bad side of it being allowed might be that the poker sites might start to offer a chance to auto fold like that.

[MrGatorade]

If anyone wants to know exactly how bots cheat I advise playing on UltimateBet now because the bots have returned. Play 30/60 or 50/100 HU keep your eyc out for MightyLu, Dogwithfleas, StJustice, BMW750I, and Bannana234. All 100% confirmed bots just like dean. While playing them not only will you notice that there game adapts to you they also know how you play every hand and adjust to that fact alone. They also pool all hand histories with all there accounts (All 4 of the above are the same user/bot) and then use that agasint you. A human is not capable of doing what they do and being successful in my opinion. They have no flaws as I can tell and have all 4 dont play me and auto sit out then 2.3 seconds later leave the table exactly the same for all 4 accounts. Bots should and will be destroyed but now the bot users are actually chatting with the players that sit with them making it harder for a novice to know they are playing a bot. UB and Absolute are having a major surge again in HU limit hold'em bots. I am activly working with support to explain why bots are bad but they simply dont care as the bots produce rake income. At least poker stars and FTP take a zero tolerance approach when it comes to the scum that use bots. I HATE BOTS!!!!

-Crazy Mike

[surfdoc]

Their, There, They're

* Their = possessive pronoun: They got their books.
* There = that place: My house is over there. (This is a place word, and so it contains the word here.)
* They're = contraction for they are: They're making dinner. (Pronouns have apostrophes only when two words are being shortened into one.)

[Tryptamean]

grammar nazi!~

[RIIT]

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If it breaks the rules of an online poker site, Dave, it's cheating.

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That's always the case everywhere, the rest being about "philosophy."

I don't think they will allow any bot play. Some have long been wanting a simple program that folds the hands one never plays; then if the rules say it's illegal, it's illegal, though it could be worth a shot as it's annoying when multitabling to do all that folding when the bot could do it. The bad side of it being allowed might be that the poker sites might start to offer a chance to auto fold like that.

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In the 1950's it was illegal to be "not white" in some areas of the U.S. ... so what? A written defintion or rule by an authority does not necessarily imply that the rule is wise or even moral for that matter. Any site that makes rules that are unnatural within an internet environment deserves problems.

RIIT

[RIIT]

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If anyone wants to know exactly how bots cheat I advise playing on UltimateBet now because the bots have returned. Play 30/60 or 50/100 HU keep your eyc out for MightyLu, Dogwithfleas, StJustice, BMW750I, and Bannana234. All 100% confirmed bots just like dean. While playing them not only will you notice that there game adapts to you they also know how you play every hand and adjust to that fact alone. They also pool all hand histories with all there accounts (All 4 of the above are the same user/bot) and then use that agasint you. A human is not capable of doing what they do and being successful in my opinion. They have no flaws as I can tell and have all 4 dont play me and auto sit out then 2.3 seconds later leave the table exactly the same for all 4 accounts. Bots should and will be destroyed but now the bot users are actually chatting with the players that sit with them making it harder for a novice to know they are playing a bot. UB and Absolute are having a major surge again in HU limit hold'em bots. I am activly working with support to explain why bots are bad but they simply dont care as the bots produce rake income. At least poker stars and FTP take a zero tolerance approach when it comes to the scum that use bots. I HATE BOTS!!!!

-Crazy Mike

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Exactly how did you arrive at the mindset where you think it is normal to expect to not encounter an autoplayer within an environment where computers outnumber humans 2 to 1?

RIIT