Post your unpaired hands...

[Hobbs.]

[ QUOTE ]
dazarath - any chance i could pm/email you to talk about what kind of thoughts are useful in these situations?

[/ QUOTE ]
not daz, but some ideas about what he might have been thinking....

hand 1 he likely expects villain to c/r any pair on the flop and feels worse ace high hands are part of SB's range and thus we have a value bet.

hand 2 CO pretty much will bet all pairs he 3-bets with preflop on the turn so when that is checked through AT-AK make up a large part of his range.

hand 3 is similar to the 2nd one although IMO much closer. Some players will check the turn here with a pair, but many won't and so again worse high cards make up a decent enough portion of these guy's ranges to warrent value bets.

[bbbushu]

i notice that hero has initiative and position on hand 1 when he chooses to bet the turn while hero lacks initiative on hand 2 and position on hand 3 when he chose to check the turn. is the assumption that villain bets any pair on the turn the reason why a check gives more info than betting out again?

(thanks btw - daz just too cool to spread the wealth?)

[Hobbs.]

[ QUOTE ]
i notice that hero has initiative and position on hand 1 when he chooses to bet the turn while hero lacks initiative on hand 2 and position on hand 3 when he chose to check the turn. is the assumption that villain bets any pair on the turn the reason why a check gives more info than betting out again?

(thanks btw - daz just too cool to spread the wealth?)

[/ QUOTE ]

again, not daz...

These are all read dependent, but in general I'd imagine all of these opponents are in the range of TAG to LAG. Hand 1 the read is SB will likely c/r the flop with a pair and when he doesn't hero thinks SB is likely calling down with a worse hand.

hand 2/3, the preflop/flop action goes as such that it would be reasonable for the villains in position to have weak pairs or underpairs to the board (like krishan said betting the turn is close in both hands) that we are unsure if we have the best hand on the turn. Once the turn gets checked through we have gained info as I'd imagine against these villains it is likely all pairs are bet on the turn.

[krishan]

[ QUOTE ]

can you talk more about this? i think this is a place where i probably consistently miss out on and/or lose a bet and it's a fairly common situation. -or- when will the draft be complete? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a very rare situation. It's not going to be a big leak.

Once you get all the fundamentals down it's tough to become expert. In my opinion it's all about little tricks you know in situations that are relatively rare. It's not about the simple, it's about the esoteric. In addition to general strategy on playing big hands, strong draws, weak draws, unpaired cards, how to use PT Stats, etc... I'm writing a bunch of stand alone essays that talk about some relatively infrequent situations that good players play suboptimally (I think). All the little tricks I know will be in the book.

Krishan

[krishan]

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) econ_tim is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">econ_tim 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.5SB, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, econ_tim folds, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to UTG.

Results:
Final pot: 4.75BB

give up too easily?

only 20 hands on villain, and they are mined. the numbers are 20/40/10. but i'm not putting much weight on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's perfect. Just think about why you raise with 3-bet AK preflop. Equity, initiative, taking the pot unpaired on the flop/turn, checking behind with a winner on the river, pairing and getting value from your pair. None of these things are happening in this hand. Fold is good.

Krishan

[bbbushu]

sounds like the book's gonna be awesome. maybe the most in depth of its kind considering how little there is about short-handed hold 'em (until now just chapters in other books). i'm excited [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[econophile]

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) econ_tim is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, 2 folds, 2 folds, econ_tim checks.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.5SB, 3 players)
econ_tim checks, UTG checks, CO checks.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (1.75BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">econ_tim bets</font>, UTG folds, CO calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.75BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">econ_tim bets</font>, . . .


not enough hands on villain to reigster on my HUD, but i noticed that he bets his hands, so pretty sure he has nothing on flop. river is not what i was hoping for, but villain could still have several busted draws.

[krishan]

Turn I like. River I really hate.

I think that J is just a terrible card and warrents giving up.

Krishan

[Dazarath]

Bbbushu, the reason I haven't responded is not that I'm "hiding" my not-so-secret information; it's because I haven't opened this thread recently. In the future, though, if you have a question for me in a thread, and you think I haven't seen it, I guess feel free to PM me and let me know that it's there.

About these hands:

I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I know for hand 1 the SB was the kind of player who'd push pairs against me, and go into check/call mode with hands like A/K-high. This made it a really easy value bet the whole way down.

For one of the two, hand 2/3 (I can't remember which), I was against a similar opponent, who would've popped the flop with anything I beat. I distinctly remember telling myself that I missed a bet on the turn.

As for general ideas involving slim value bets, you need to watch opponents' tendencies. I run into opponents who will push any pair, but fall into check/call mode with A-high, because they think they have showdown value. Well sure, they do, until I notice this and my river bet is 100% for value.

Today, I ran into this very weird opponent. He would bet/3-bet, checkraise, etc his two pair+ and draws/air. But he was fall into passive mode with what I consider pretty strong hands, ie. an overpair, TPTK, etc. Because of this, I was actually able to bet/3-bet AK-high for value.

If you're against a LAGtard, who just bet/raises any two cards, you can't do something like this as he'll be firing anyways. If you're against a passive player, it's hard, because you'll run into situations where you think you're value betting A-high, or a low pair, and you get shown 2nd pair, good kicker. This happens to me when I'm not careful.

I don't know if you saw my post in the hand swap thread, but currently, I'm playing around a 34/25 style. As a result, opponents are going to react differently to me than they will to you. You may not run into these situations nearly as often.

[bbbushu]

didn't mean to insinuate you'd "hide" information - i thought maybe hobbs was trying to tell me you weren't gonna answer (he said "not daz" a few times and i guess i just didnt understand...) but i really appreciate the response. i'm both technically and literally "newbie" here and it helps to get in-depth answers to my questions because i'm mostly playing catcher with the discussions and plan to be asking more than telling for a pretty long while...

but next time i might just pm [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]