Typical spot and a quiz

[tufat23]

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now correct me if i'm wrong, but: 3-handed with this guy and another guy with 4500, i'm assuming that the other guy is a big fish. And as such, this guy should be willing to gamble to get a stack to take him on (as should you, to an extent). So you should call with a wider range than you normally would here.

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hmmmmm

[BobboFitos]

call all 3, ship it

[Josh.]

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In the actual hand I held JJ and called, beating his 88, so clearly I should be calling all 3. Still it's an interesting effect.

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What do you think of villains play?

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terrible

[Josh.]

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now correct me if i'm wrong, but: 3-handed with this guy and another guy with 4500, i'm assuming that the other guy is a big fish. And as such, this guy should be willing to gamble to get a stack to take him on (as should you, to an extent). So you should call with a wider range than you normally would here.

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yeah this is definitely a compelling argument for bet-call as opposed to checking and playing a small pot since the two otherwise probably run pretty close in value vs most

[Jamougha]

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JJ only beats either if you include Tx in he mix, and most people do not shove AT here.

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why would somebody be shoving so much anus that calling Q9 is a solid move here and NOT shove AT?

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You kind of miss the point. He doesn't need to be shoving a wide range for calling with Q9s to be solid. His range can be tight enough that we should fold JJ and yet Q9s is a call. Example, if his range is 88+, 55 ONLY then Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is roughly breakeven and JJ is a loosing call.

[Jamougha]

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In the actual hand I held JJ and called, beating his 88, so clearly I should be calling all 3. Still it's an interesting effect.

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What do you think of villains play?

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Ridiculous.

[soah]

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In the actual hand I held JJ and called, beating his 88, so clearly I should be calling all 3. Still it's an interesting effect.

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What do you think of villains play?

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terrible

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why? what would you have done? 88 is the best hand here fairly often and it looks like a lot of people would be folding some better hands to a push... I'd rather fold pf than to fold on a relatively safe board like this one... and calling isn't all that great either when you have cards to dodge and aren't 100% sure which ones they are, nor do you know anything about your opponent's bluffing frequency on the turn.

[ddubois]

What do you guys think should villain be shoving with here? I, personally, will have JJ+ or OESD roughly 99% of the time when I shove here. (My limited experiences with "slow-playing" AK preflop to a 3-bet and then shoving over top when I miss post-flop have been universally dismal failures, so I stopped doing it.)

So if what I say is true, all of OP's hands are folds:

Hand 0: 23.580% 22.12% 01.46% 7885 519.00 { JdJh }
Hand 1: 76.420% 74.96% 01.46% 26717 519.00 { 99+, 55, QJs, T9s, 87s }

Hand 0: 25.607% 25.30% 00.31% 9016 110.50 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 74.393% 74.08% 00.31% 26403 110.50 { 99+, 55, QJs, T9s, 87s }

Hand 0: 27.577% 27.36% 00.22% 10022 79.50 { Qh9h }
Hand 1: 72.423% 72.21% 00.22% 26449 79.50 { 99+, 55, QJs, T9s, 87s }

On the other hand, since some people think these are all calls, most good 2+2ers most be shoving much wider than me. Is this a more appropriate range for you guys?

Hand 0: 35.846% 34.70% 01.15% 16488 546.00 { JdJh }
Hand 1: 64.154% 63.01% 01.15% 29940 546.00 { 99+, 55, ATs, KTs+, QJs, T9s, 87s }

Hand 0: 30.877% 30.45% 00.43% 14169 198.00 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 69.123% 68.70% 00.43% 31965 198.00 { 99+, 55, ATs, KTs+, QJs, T9s, 87s }

Hand 0: 32.883% 32.69% 00.19% 16181 96.00 { Qh9h }
Hand 1: 67.117% 66.92% 00.19% 33127 96.00 { 99+, 55, ATs, KTs+, QJs, T9s, 87s }

Should I be opening up my shoving range in CO's spot? What about thinner shoves like A9s or Ah5h or 6c7c?

Also, it doesn't seem accurate to me to be giving all of these combos full credit. Are you guys going off with two overs and a gutter that often? Because I'm not catching people having KJs here hardly ever.

[BobboFitos]

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(My limited experiences with "slow-playing" AK preflop to a 3-bet and then shoving over top when I miss post-flop have been universally dismal failures, so I stopped doing it.)


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me too, ak when it whiffs is so bad

[jfish]

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why? what would you have done? 88 is the best hand here fairly often and it looks like a lot of people would be folding some better hands to a push... I'd rather fold pf than to fold on a relatively safe board like this one... and calling isn't all that great either when you have cards to dodge and aren't 100% sure which ones they are, nor do you know anything about your opponent's bluffing frequency on the turn.

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um calling is infinitely better. your argument is calling leads to tougher decisions so his play is reasonable - thats stupid.