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#41
10-24-2007, 12:00 PM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
Yeah. I don't think a tough and tricky player is only 3-betting a check-minraise with top set. I also don't understand giving him the option to blow us off our draw.
All of these questions are why I personally wouldn't play this PF. 
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#42
10-24-2007, 12:33 PM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces.. [/ QUOTE ] since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile. It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ. [/ QUOTE ] didnt think that part was a serious response, but if it is, then umm, i dont agree. you cminr a tough player on A98ssx and he only 3bet's a set??? and onlyAK/AQ calls the flop minrz? this reasoning is just bizarre and not true. esp given its 350bb's deep. [/ QUOTE ] I didn't wanna sound like a hater
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#43
10-25-2007, 10:16 PM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I don't think a tough and tricky player is only 3-betting a check-minraise with top set. I also don't understand giving him the option to blow us off our draw. All of these questions are why I personally wouldn't play this PF. [/ QUOTE ] none of you have any idea how players react to min bets and min cr's cause you never do it..i do. look how it shuts down thaler in this hand. and dont be to quick to give him credit for a sick read he makes some radically bad reads as well...i know. the truth is these mini bet plays really play havoc w/ the game. http://www.ultimatepokerchallenge.co...s.php?search=8 (and im not even sure it was on purpose) once you know how players react to these plays you have massive leverage...those of you who arent making at least one "min" move and one massive overbet every 500 hands are not playing dynamic poker.
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#44
10-25-2007, 10:19 PM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces.. [/ QUOTE ] since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile. It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ. [/ QUOTE ] didnt think that part was a serious response, but if it is, then umm, i dont agree. you cminr a tough player on A98ssx and he only 3bet's a set??? and onlyAK/AQ calls the flop minrz? this reasoning is just bizarre and not true. esp given its 350bb's deep. [/ QUOTE ] watch the vidoe i posted its a mediocre exampple of what i know to be true but i dont have video of my game at the commerce. you dont make these plays all day so you dont know what is true about them.
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#45
10-26-2007, 01:17 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] i wouldn't play the flop or turn like this. leading $200 into $370 on the flop was intended for what purpose? i ask b/c you flat his 4-bet, which effectively has now simply bloated the pot with you being OOP and puts you at risk of getting blown off a hand that you'll want to take to showdown often. In addition to this, you've now increased the size of the pot which, for a lot of players, means they've put themselves in a spot where they feel priced in regardless and stack off later in the hand, etc, etc. So why donk the flop if you're not going to re-raise? I dont suggest donking the flop, I would very very rarely ever do it in a spot like this, but if I did i'd intend on getting more money in if I got raised. So i'd c/c the flop. As played the turn becomes really hard to play correctly imo. I dont know how much fold equity you have here but I think the only hand you're beating is JsTs, so i'm going to go ahead and say you have little to no fold equity so you must be raising for value b/c you think he's capable of overplaying a hand that you're ahead of...but that doesn't match your description of him at all. If I was in this spot I'd just flat call the turn after that flop action and re-eval the river. Seems like a classic example of taking a suited connector and kind of butchering it out of position. Also, against a player like this with stacks of similar sizes, players often over estimate their implied odds. You dont become considered tough and tricky by your opponents in a 10/20 game by getting 300 BB's in on this turn w/ AK. -Tex
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#46
10-26-2007, 01:35 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] i wouldn't play the flop or turn like this. leading $200 into $370 on the flop was intended for what purpose? i ask b/c you flat his 4-bet, which effectively has now simply bloated the pot with you being OOP and puts you at risk of getting blown off a hand that you'll want to take to showdown often. In addition to this, you've now increased the size of the pot which, for a lot of players, means they've put themselves in a spot where they feel priced in regardless and stack off later in the hand, etc, etc. So why donk the flop if you're not going to re-raise? I dont suggest donking the flop, I would very very rarely ever do it in a spot like this, but if I did i'd intend on getting more money in if I got raised. So i'd c/c the flop. As played the turn becomes really hard to play correctly imo. I dont know how much fold equity you have here but I think the only hand you're beating is JsTs, so i'm going to go ahead and say you have little to no fold equity so you must be raising for value b/c you think he's capable of overplaying a hand that you're ahead of...but that doesn't match your description of him at all. If I was in this spot I'd just flat call the turn after that flop action and re-eval the river. Seems like a classic example of taking a suited connector and kind of butchering it out of position. Also, against a player like this with stacks of similar sizes, players often over estimate their implied odds. You dont become considered tough and tricky by your opponents in a 10/20 game by getting 300 BB's in on this turn w/ AK. -Tex [/ QUOTE ] solid analysis but i think once you check call this flop you pretty much lock in a loss against tt,jj,qq,kk and some weak aces if you dont improve. however i min cr gets these hands to fold a very high % of the time because they start to see themselves playing a very big pot for no reason. the downside to opening the betting again is a bluff re-raise...this happens so infrequently that i think the benefits of getting tt-kk to fold and even some weak aces far outweighs it. the other benefit of the min cr is that on the 98% of the time that your not being bluff re-raised you can safely fold to a set that has you crushed and you dont end up stacking off w/ 2 crappy pair because you have no idea where your at.
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#49
10-26-2007, 02:00 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] i wouldn't play the flop or turn like this. leading $200 into $370 on the flop was intended for what purpose? i ask b/c you flat his 4-bet, which effectively has now simply bloated the pot with you being OOP and puts you at risk of getting blown off a hand that you'll want to take to showdown often. In addition to this, you've now increased the size of the pot which, for a lot of players, means they've put themselves in a spot where they feel priced in regardless and stack off later in the hand, etc, etc. So why donk the flop if you're not going to re-raise? I dont suggest donking the flop, I would very very rarely ever do it in a spot like this, but if I did i'd intend on getting more money in if I got raised. So i'd c/c the flop. As played the turn becomes really hard to play correctly imo. I dont know how much fold equity you have here but I think the only hand you're beating is JsTs, so i'm going to go ahead and say you have little to no fold equity so you must be raising for value b/c you think he's capable of overplaying a hand that you're ahead of...but that doesn't match your description of him at all. If I was in this spot I'd just flat call the turn after that flop action and re-eval the river. Seems like a classic example of taking a suited connector and kind of butchering it out of position. Also, against a player like this with stacks of similar sizes, players often over estimate their implied odds. You dont become considered tough and tricky by your opponents in a 10/20 game by getting 300 BB's in on this turn w/ AK. -Tex [/ QUOTE ] solid analysis but i think once you check call this flop you pretty much lock in a loss against tt,jj,qq,kk and some weak aces if you dont improve. however i min cr gets these hands to fold a very high % of the time because they start to see themselves playing a very big pot for no reason. the downside to opening the betting again is a bluff re-raise...this happens so infrequently that i think the benefits of getting tt-kk to fold and even some weak aces far outweighs it. the other benefit of the min cr is that on the 98% of the time that your not being bluff re-raised you can safely fold to a set that has you crushed and you dont end up stacking off w/ 2 crappy pair because you have no idea where your at. [/ QUOTE ] I didn't even consider that when I was thinking about the flop action. It's a very good point, and far far better action than the flop line OP took imo. It would likely keep the pot smaller than in the OP and will occasionally give us a free card. But please clarify, b/c my whole arguement really centers around not getting pushed off the hand- if we check min-raise (assume he bets about pot, $350, and we raise to $700), we're content with folding this hand if our opponent re-raises to .....? $2500+ (off the top of my head)....? -Tex
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#50
10-26-2007, 02:12 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] i wouldn't play the flop or turn like this. leading $200 into $370 on the flop was intended for what purpose? i ask b/c you flat his 4-bet, which effectively has now simply bloated the pot with you being OOP and puts you at risk of getting blown off a hand that you'll want to take to showdown often. In addition to this, you've now increased the size of the pot which, for a lot of players, means they've put themselves in a spot where they feel priced in regardless and stack off later in the hand, etc, etc. So why donk the flop if you're not going to re-raise? I dont suggest donking the flop, I would very very rarely ever do it in a spot like this, but if I did i'd intend on getting more money in if I got raised. So i'd c/c the flop. As played the turn becomes really hard to play correctly imo. I dont know how much fold equity you have here but I think the only hand you're beating is JsTs, so i'm going to go ahead and say you have little to no fold equity so you must be raising for value b/c you think he's capable of overplaying a hand that you're ahead of...but that doesn't match your description of him at all. If I was in this spot I'd just flat call the turn after that flop action and re-eval the river. Seems like a classic example of taking a suited connector and kind of butchering it out of position. Also, against a player like this with stacks of similar sizes, players often over estimate their implied odds. You dont become considered tough and tricky by your opponents in a 10/20 game by getting 300 BB's in on this turn w/ AK. -Tex [/ QUOTE ] solid analysis but i think once you check call this flop you pretty much lock in a loss against tt,jj,qq,kk and some weak aces if you dont improve. however i min cr gets these hands to fold a very high % of the time because they start to see themselves playing a very big pot for no reason. the downside to opening the betting again is a bluff re-raise...this happens so infrequently that i think the benefits of getting tt-kk to fold and even some weak aces far outweighs it. the other benefit of the min cr is that on the 98% of the time that your not being bluff re-raised you can safely fold to a set that has you crushed and you dont end up stacking off w/ 2 crappy pair because you have no idea where your at. [/ QUOTE ] I didn't even consider that when I was thinking about the flop action. It's a very good point, and far far better action than the flop line OP took imo. It would likely keep the pot smaller than in the OP and will occasionally give us a free card. But please clarify, b/c my whole arguement really centers around not getting pushed off the hand- if we check min-raise (assume he bets about pot, $350, and we raise to $700), we're content with folding this hand if our opponent re-raises to .....? $2500+ (off the top of my head)....? -Tex [/ QUOTE ] ez fold for me...but then again my opponents will have seen me make this min cr before w/ the nuts. but even if they havent still insta muck. back to pf, to many people think this pf call is a no brainer. before i play a draw oop for implied odds i decide if the raiser is really gonna be easily folding to semi-bluffs or paying off when i get there. this dude fits neither description bad pre-flop call. now the hand is tough and you have to try to manufacture a line.
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