NL Bots on Full Tilt

[Vavavoom]

I really don't see how 4 people sitting together could play so identically...

Just wouldn't be able to happen...

Nation, I think Chuck should post....and I think you waiting this long has done more damage than good...

Vava

Fwiw,

Nation have you played in a similar set-up to this before and have you played in Chuck's set-up ?

[TempusFugit]

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As I said, they have similar stats because they all basically play together, so they play exactly the same. They play for pot control in the same spots, stack off in the same spots, etc.


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Poker is a far too complex game for that to be even remotely true. Even the highly variant judgement call like stats are very very similar (river stats, for example). And if the adjusted to the regulars, as you said, then there'd also be greater differences in stats.

I think even if two very successful and smart poker players tried on purpose to play in such a way that they a) make money and b) have exactly the same stats they would different - especially on the later streets.

Also, what do you make of "folding to pre-flop min-reraise", insta-folding to river blocking min-bet etc kind of stuff?

[Mr_Donktastic]

Very interesting thread. I guess the 'team' explanation could account for some of the behavior but it still seems pretty fishy to me.

Q: If this team/bot can't crack 3ptbb/100 then why not just shortstack? It would be easier to coach your minions/program your bot to play basic shorstack strategy than try to play deep. They can't be trying to better their poker game if they are just following a script...

[mikechops]

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Also, as someone else has pointed out, it would help to have PAHUD stats have a couple of decimals. If one guy after 100k hands is 14.24 and the other is 13.67, I think that's a huge difference. Then I could see it being a few friends playing together (maybe like a frat) and having one guy teach them. This would explain the discrepancy in bb/100 of the two players on the right (the right-most player being a loser). This would also be consistent with them playing at the same time and not playing on the same tables.

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After 100k hands ofcourse there is a still difference in decimals in preflop actions, first of all the action before the bots turn matters alot and 100k isn't enough to take away the randomness of other peoples actions before the bots.

If that didn't make any sense example;

-bot folds JJ after there is a raise and a reraise.-

bot1: is dealt JJ and has to fold because there is a raise and a reraise.
bot2: is dealt JJ and nobody raises before him.

100k hands isn't enough to take away that randomness

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FWIW I make the SD for hands played at 14%VPIP over 100k hands dealt to be ~100 ( sqrt(100k * 0.14 * (1-0.14)) ) or 0.1%. Differences of 0.5% are pretty big.

[Raised2Win]

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Yes, they have exactly the same stats. They developed a specific way to play preflop, all memorized it, and use it in exactly the same way.


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They play the exact same way after the flop too. If those are 3 different people they have memorized alot of things, I bet they have been trained by their leader for years before released to the jungle of 1/2 Fullring.

[nation]

I'll answer more questions when I get back from dinner.

[BluffTHIS!]

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I told chuck to save his breath and not post on here. He's a sub 20 post poster, so I have a feeling he would have gotten zero credibility, and no one would believe him.

As I said, they have similar stats because they all basically play together, so they play exactly the same. They play for pot control in the same spots, stack off in the same spots, etc.

I've done my part as far as clearing up any and all questions regarding this matter. I get the feeling that any further correspondence will be "I don't believe you" posts. At this point, those posters are set in their beliefs and nothing, save an independently placed live web cam from chuck's house, will convince them otherwise.

If there are any more relevant questions, I'll be monitoring this thread and will answer them.

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nation,

You have shown a pattern of bashing me in the past, so I guess I might have some reason not to like or trust you. However, I have no reason to believe you are lying here. Nonetheless the following applies:

1) this is the internet;
2) posters and mods have lied before;
3) you like others in these forums might place loyalty to a friend higher than honesty to strangers;
4) even if you are 100% truthful, that doesn't mean you can't be wrong about your friend, no matter how good of a friend he is.
5) 99% of posters coming here and saying "my friend did X" would be laughed off with a chorus of replies to admit the friend is really them.


So although I would think it wrong for any poster without proof to call you a liar, I also don't think it wrong to question the 100% accuracy of the whole situation, including your own personal judgement of your friend and his honesty to you.

It should also be noted that you have copped out here to some degree by saying you won't be answering much more and that your friend wouldn't be taken seriously. You could just have easily introduced his posting account and vouched for him and let him deal with this thread.

[Melchiades]

Nation. They don't have similar stats. They have close to all identical stats on all streets. If they just played identical preflop and similar postflop that would be ok, but it still seems fishy to me that different players have identical stats all around. My stats from 100k to the next my 100k hands are far far more different than this.

The timing tells as well seems weird, even though we have no proof as you said. Your word is hardly proof either though.

[DWarrior]

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I really don't see how 4 people sitting together could play so identically...

Just wouldn't be able to happen...

Nation, I think Chuck should post....and I think you waiting this long has done more damage than good...

Vava

Fwiw,

Nation have you played in a similar set-up to this before and have you played in Chuck's set-up ?

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But as someone else said, they're not identical. Their stats are 14/7, but as someone else said, one is 13.xx and the other is 14.xx. That's not identical over a large sample size. C-bet would also be identical if their strategy is learned together, if they simply fire any flop vs 1-2 villains and check vs 3+, that would make their c-bet identical.

[Fat Nicky]

nation, please look at the evidence in this thread and try to look at it completely unbiased to the fact that he is your friend.

also, just because he is your friend, does not mean that he is telling the truth, people do not like being called cheaters, even when they know their guilty.

if you confronted him about this, and he told you that he was in fact using bots across multiple accounts, would you come here and tell us he admitted to his wrongdoing.