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#411
11-02-2007, 11:54 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Unannounced? Did you not read the article about the testers requesting parking passes from the teams the day before tests? Would that not signal you to flush your system. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, it was written in an article, so it must be true. Jesus Christ Until you realize that HPAC members go to games and then may select a 2-3 different players to test at any given time prior to gametime, on the spot. Given that the work all through the season, and at most there can only be 15 games on any given day, most of the time less, it wouldn't exactly be rocket science to deduce they just might be at the park on any given day. Do you really think teams alert all 50 players at the game that the day before, they heard HPAC might be in town? Do you really think the players can "flush their system" in a day? Do you really think this is happenening on each of the 10-15 visits HPAC makes during each of a given players games? Do you realize that even if you only assumed one HPAC team was in operation, their is at least a 1/15th chance that they will be at the park that night? Did you know that their is far more than one HPAC collection team? Or, do you just base everything on "the article you read" that was critical of testing? [ QUOTE ] The bottom line is the policy has no real teeth. There are obviously ways to circumvent it. Anyway, I really dont care. [/ QUOTE ] How can you comment on a policy that you apparently know nothing about? Just an hour ago you were saying it would be good if they tested all the players, and asserted that they didn't. Except that they do. Oops... In 2003, when they instituted testing, many in the media proclaimed a moral victory and proclaimed that Bonds had "no where to hide"....and I predicted back then he would test out clean, and then they would naturally turn their attention to criticizing the testing policy as being "easy to beat" rather than being objective and realistic about it. [/ QUOTE ] How do you know all this? Prove it. I want video of HPAC guys at every single game and I want to see them in the clubhouse watching dudes piss. Cant come up with that? Then how do you know what they do? You read it somewhere. Which is fine. Just dont double standard me. 
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#412
11-02-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
Do I think their is a better chance Bonds cheated than some random? Yes. [/ QUOTE ] That's not what I asked. I am simply asking your opinion on whether or not you think the following specific players cheated, using the same logic you stated for previously defining your assertion of cheating: Tony Gwynn Roger Clemens Hank Aaron Bruce Bochy Willie Mays Dan Marino John Elway Barry Bonds Terrell Davis Michael Chang Jerry Rice Mike Schmidt Brett Favre Roger Maris If you don't know who some of these guys are, put N/A, or whatever.
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#413
11-02-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It is not explicitly cheating in the rule book, but I think everyone agrees it is against the spirit of the rules. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is where one of the disconnects are in our disagreement, and your previous assertion that I am 'wrong' in saying that Bonds never cheated in regards to the allegations put forward during that time period. I'm basing it on the rules that govern the game, as mutually agreed upon by the union and the league, and you're basing your assertion on the rules as you arbitrarily determine what you want them to be. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed mostly. Although I cant believe that you truly believe PED's are not against the spirit of the rules. I mean, are rocket shoes explicitly listed as being against the rules? If not, then someone who used rocket shoes to get to 1st faster would not be doing anything wrong, correct?
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#414
11-02-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
RedBean, What percentage chance do you assign to a random player from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using a PED? What percentage chance do you assign Barry Bonds from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using a PED? [/ QUOTE ] Answer this please...
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#415
11-02-2007, 12:00 PM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Do I think their is a better chance Bonds cheated than some random? Yes. [/ QUOTE ] That's not what I asked. I am simply asking your opinion on whether or not you think the following specific players cheated, using the same logic you stated for previously defining your assertion of cheating: Tony Gwynn <font color="red"> maybe </font> Roger Clemens <font color="red"> maybe </font> Hank Aaron<font color="red"> maybe </font> Bruce Bochy<font color="red"> maybe </font> Willie Mays<font color="red"> maybe </font> Dan Marino<font color="red"> maybe </font> John Elway<font color="red"> maybe </font> Barry Bonds<font color="red"> maybe </font> Terrell Davis<font color="red"> maybe </font> Michael Chang<font color="red"> maybe </font> Jerry Rice<font color="red"> maybe </font> Mike Schmidt<font color="red"> maybe </font> Brett Favre<font color="red"> maybe </font> Roger Maris <font color="red"> maybe </font> If you don't know who some of these guys are, put N/A, or whatever. [/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> </font> <font color="red"> </font> What specific logic did I use? Maybe that will help clear this up. I am just not sure what part you are referring to.
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#416
11-02-2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
How do you know all this? Prove it. I want video of HPAC guys at every single game and I want to see them in the clubhouse watching dudes piss. [/ QUOTE ] Because I actually read the policy, rather than making patently false assumptions about it. [ QUOTE ] Just dont double standard me. [/ QUOTE ] The only standard I am holding you to is one of accuracy. You previosuly asserted that not all players were tested, and that they weren't tested unnannounced. That is false, and I merely corrected it as outlined in simple terms according to the MLB policy.
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#417
11-02-2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed mostly. Although I cant believe that you truly believe PED's are not against the spirit of the rules. [/ QUOTE ] They weren't prior to the MLB Steroid Policy. Both the league and the union negotiated including them as early as 1991, and they mutually agreed to NOT include them as banned substances at that time. It's not as if they were unaware of them. [ QUOTE ] I mean, are rocket shoes explicitly listed as being against the rules? If not, then someone who used rocket shoes to get to 1st faster would not be doing anything wrong, correct? [/ QUOTE ] Actually, that would be covered by the MLB Game Rules in regards to equipment specifications, and not governed by the CBA as agree to with the union. FWIW....the issue has never come up in negotiations. And remember, as early as the 1920's, several players felt weight training altogether was "against the spirit of the rules" and some considered it "cheating"...but obviously, it never made it into the rules. Likewise, small factions have voiced their concerns for varying medical advancements that have impacted the game as being "against teh spirit", in so much as Tommy John surgery and corrective laser eye procedures that actually improve vision......but the union would never agree to such as they assist in prolonging a players earning capacity.
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#418
11-02-2007, 12:20 PM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How do you know all this? Prove it. I want video of HPAC guys at every single game and I want to see them in the clubhouse watching dudes piss. [/ QUOTE ] Because I actually read the policy, rather than making patently false assumptions about it. [ QUOTE ] Just dont double standard me. [/ QUOTE ] The only standard I am holding you to is one of accuracy. You previosuly asserted that not all players were tested, and that they weren't tested unnannounced. That is false, and I merely corrected it as outlined in simple terms according to the MLB policy. [/ QUOTE ] So you believe everything you read? And you also believe that what is written is explicitly followed to the letter?
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#419
11-02-2007, 12:23 PM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Agreed mostly. Although I cant believe that you truly believe PED's are not against the spirit of the rules. [/ QUOTE ] They weren't prior to the MLB Steroid Policy. Both the league and the union negotiated including them as early as 1991, and they mutually agreed to NOT include them as banned substances at that time. It's not as if they were unaware of them. [ QUOTE ] I mean, are rocket shoes explicitly listed as being against the rules? If not, then someone who used rocket shoes to get to 1st faster would not be doing anything wrong, correct? [/ QUOTE ] Actually, that would be covered by the MLB Game Rules in regards to equipment specifications, and not governed by the CBA as agree to with the union. FWIW....the issue has never come up in negotiations. And remember, as early as the 1920's, several players felt weight training altogether was "against the spirit of the rules" and some considered it "cheating"...but obviously, it never made it into the rules. Likewise, small factions have voiced their concerns for varying medical advancements that have impacted the game as being "against teh spirit", in so much as Tommy John surgery and corrective laser eye procedures that actually improve vision......but the union would never agree to such as they assist in prolonging a players earning capacity. [/ QUOTE ] Please find the no rocket shoes allowed rule in the Rules of baseball please. I dont think it is there. So whether YOU think it is covered by equipment regulations is irrelevant, right?
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#420
11-02-2007, 12:34 PM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
From Section 4 of the Major League Baseball Constitution
[ QUOTE ] that nothing in Section 4 shall limit the Commissioner’s authority to act on any matters that involves the integrity of, or public confidence in, the national game of Baseball.” [/ QUOTE ] So as far as rules go, do you think PED's fit into this category of things that affect the integrity of baseball? Not to mention the very easy argument of: buying steroids with no prescription is breaking the law, and baseball is free to punish you for breaking the law.
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