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#401
11-02-2007, 10:20 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The testing policy is a joke though, can we all agree on that? They only test a few guys (5 a team, I think), players have a good idea of when the testers are coming, [/ QUOTE ] Um....every player is tested at least once, some are randomly selected for more, and players under suspicion can be tested up to 6 times throughout a season, and the tests are all unannounced. [ QUOTE ] Until they make every single ball player piss in a cup unannounced we will have zero idea how many players are users. [/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what they've been doing since 2003. Oops... [ QUOTE ] but if the league wants clarity the only way to do it is to test everyone. [/ QUOTE ] Which is what they do. [/ QUOTE ] Unannounced? Did you not read the article about the testers requesting parking passes from the teams the day before tests? Would that not signal you to flush your system. And what about offseason testing. That is randomly done. Not every player is subjected. It would seem like that is when one would be working out the hardest and most likely to use. What about HGH? This is really the biggie for MLB. The bottom line is the policy has no real teeth. There are obviously ways to circumvent it. Anyway, I really dont care. Like I said before, if they want to use thats fine with me. 
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#402
11-02-2007, 10:20 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
You're making the assumption that the sports media and the federal investigators actually care about steroids, instead of using it as a pretext to get Bonds because they think he is a prick. [/ QUOTE ] Any evidence at all to support this theory?
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#403
11-02-2007, 10:34 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
It is not explicitly cheating in the rule book, but I think everyone agrees it is against the spirit of the rules. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is where one of the disconnects are in our disagreement, and your previous assertion that I am 'wrong' in saying that Bonds never cheated in regards to the allegations put forward during that time period. I'm basing it on the rules that govern the game, as mutually agreed upon by the union and the league, and you're basing your assertion on the rules as you arbitrarily determine what you want them to be.
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#404
11-02-2007, 10:52 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
I love how every time there is a Bonds related thread RedBean ends up spending days disproving statements about him. We should just have a sticky with all the past Bonds threads so people can read them before they think about trying to argue with him.
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#405
11-02-2007, 10:54 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You're making the assumption that the sports media and the federal investigators actually care about steroids, instead of using it as a pretext to get Bonds because they think he is a prick. [/ QUOTE ] Any evidence at all to support this theory? [/ QUOTE ] On the federal side: the life story of Jeff Novitsky, the primary investigator in the majority of steroid cases, from Balco, the Grimsley case, and the Mets clubbie case. Novitsky is an IRS agent, a former college athlete, and he worked out at the same gym as Bonds in 2000, and according to fellow government agents, he had an unnatural desire to get Bonds on "something" because he didn't like him. Agent Ira White is on record as detailing Novitsky's attempts first at trying to get Bonds for tax evasion, as obviously being an IRS agent, that was his jurisdiction....and then he moved on to the BALCO stuff once the tax investigation reached a dead end. He's the same guy who made the initial unauthorized investigations by dumpster diving at Balco, despite the DEA objected to his authority to do so, and he was the one who arranged the media be present in full-force at the BALCO raid, which was later lambasted internally as a textbook example of how NOT to conduct a surreptitious raid by having media present. He was the primary lead on the BALCO investigation, signed the majority if not all of the affadavits you see from the Grimsley case, the Balco case, and the Met's clubbie case, and his chase of the white whale is well known within the department and his failure to get his main target is equally as obvious. (After an investigation that lasted several years, the government dropped 54 of thre 56 counts in the BALCO case, and plead out 4-5 months sentences for crimes that were punishable by multiple years, in part because, quite simply, the entire goal was to get Bonds to admit using steroids while under oath and under the shield of immunity. But, as we all know, Bonds defiantly denied as much, despite the others players admitting, and I'm sure as anyone that infuriated Novitsky....hence the quick shift to attacking him in the court of public opinion, rather than getting him by legal means. He's also the guy the pressured Grimsley to turn information on Bonds in exchange for not outing his name, and when Grimsley refused because he sincerely didn't have anything on Bonds....at which point it was Novitsky that suggested Grimsley wear a wire and try to implicate Bonds during a conversation, but Grimsley refused...but instead gave him several other names, Novitsky dropped the case, redacted the names of all the players implicated since they weren't Bonds, and the case largely disappeared from government interest. Novtisky had no interest in getting Roger Clemens, Andy Petite, etc.....if it wasn't Bonds, it wasn't good enough. Fellow Agent White also is on record as saying the primary motivation for Agent Novitsky was his dislike for Bonds for being arrogant, his jealousy of his fortunes, and had mentioned on occasion at how "big a story" it would be if he were the one who took him down, and how he could possibly one day "write a book about it" for a big payday. All in all, Novitsky was so confident that he had his man, and that it was open and shuit....but here we are, 7 years and counting since Novitsky began his quest, and he has nothing to show but a long line of collateral damage, and a scot-free main target. gg, Jeff. As for the media, I could talk for days and days about their knowledge of Operation Equine as early as 1994, their tacitly condoning steroid use and refusing to report on it through the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's....along with them suddenly and only caring about it once they thought that and easy Bonds target was in their sights....only they too, ended up realizing that the big man isn't just defiant, he's not an easy catch. But rather than bore you with the obvious, I'll just answer the question you asked....yeah....there is definitive evidence to support it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#406
11-02-2007, 11:02 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
So you're saying that if this Novitsky guy was fired tomorrow, all of the Bonds steroid stuff goes away?
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#407
11-02-2007, 11:08 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
Unannounced? Did you not read the article about the testers requesting parking passes from the teams the day before tests? Would that not signal you to flush your system. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, it was written in an article, so it must be true. Jesus Christ Until you realize that HPAC members go to games and then may select a 2-3 different players to test at any given time prior to gametime, on the spot. Given that the work all through the season, and at most there can only be 15 games on any given day, most of the time less, it wouldn't exactly be rocket science to deduce they just might be at the park on any given day. Do you really think teams alert all 50 players at the game that the day before, they heard HPAC might be in town? Do you really think the players can "flush their system" in a day? Do you really think this is happenening on each of the 10-15 visits HPAC makes during each of a given players games? Do you realize that even if you only assumed one HPAC team was in operation, their is at least a 1/15th chance that they will be at the park that night? Did you know that their is far more than one HPAC collection team? Or, do you just base everything on "the article you read" that was critical of testing? [ QUOTE ] The bottom line is the policy has no real teeth. There are obviously ways to circumvent it. Anyway, I really dont care. [/ QUOTE ] How can you comment on a policy that you apparently know nothing about? Just an hour ago you were saying it would be good if they tested all the players, and asserted that they didn't. Except that they do. Oops... In 2003, when they instituted testing, many in the media proclaimed a moral victory and proclaimed that Bonds had "no where to hide"....and I predicted back then he would test out clean, and then they would naturally turn their attention to criticizing the testing policy as being "easy to beat" rather than being objective and realistic about it.
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#408
11-02-2007, 11:14 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But going along the same lines, and using your same logic, please tell me in your opinion if you think the following players cheated: (yes/no by their names, or assign a percentage of likelihood if you prefer) Tony Gwynn Roger Clemens Hank Aaron Bruce Bochy Willie Mays Dan Marino John Elway Barry Bonds Terrell Davis Michael Chang Jerry Rice Mike Schmidt Brett Favre Roger Maris [/ QUOTE ] Manbearpig, now that you're back, looking forward to your answer on this one... [/ QUOTE ] All maybes? Some more likely than others.. [/ QUOTE ] So basically, you're not going to bother applying the same previous logic to anyone except Bonds. I understand. Believe me, you wouldn't be anywhere close to the first.
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#409
11-02-2007, 11:27 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that if this Novitsky guy was fired tomorrow, all of the Bonds steroid stuff goes away? [/ QUOTE ] Not exactly, as much like many in the sports media are starting to realize and regret their previous vitriol from just a few years previous....the genie is already out of the bottle....and now they have to begrudgingly apply at least the appearance of a similar standard to everyone moving forward. But hey, they wanted to get the big guy and in doing so created the whole mess.....and now they get to deal with the whole mess they created...while the big guys rides off into the sunshine and sips mohitos while laughing about the time one lone defiant man with a baseball bat took on the entirety of the DOJ and national media combined, and came away in the clear. But yeah, had Novitsky never existed, or even had he not happened to work out at the same gym as Bonds, or if b7 chance he had happened to not be a vindictive and jealous power-hungry tool....then yeah....none of this probably would have happened. Kind of similar as to why in 1991-1992, Operation Equine wasn't a big deal or make any headlines....because Mark McGwire didn't have his own version of a Jeff Novtisky.... MLB was made aware of it in 1994, and despite using it as private leverage in the 1994 strike negotiations, and even later agreeing to not include steroids testing as part of the CBA in years afterwards....as well as several in teh media being made aware of it in 1994, and not daring to report on it publically even four years later during the "Chase for Maris"....yet when the first peep surfaced on Bonds, they pounced on it like sharks...and everyone involved at all levels acted surprised about steroids and played dumb about their involvement in the game prior....a transparent charade to jusitfy their sudden interest only now that it could be a pretext to get Bonds, rather than it previously being an inconvenient truth regarding some of thier more beloved heros. And all in all, what bothers me even more than the media injustice towards Bonds.....considering t least they've been consistent in their contempt for him....is their complete double-cross of Big Mac and throwing him under the bus, when many of the same folks who acted surprised and condemned him following the congressional hearings are some of the very same folks who were aware of Oper. Equine as early as 1994 and chose to sit on it and not report it because they found Big Mac likeable and didn't want ot pursue the story.
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#410
11-02-2007, 11:51 AM
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Re: Bonds bitter over departure from Giants
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But going along the same lines, and using your same logic, please tell me in your opinion if you think the following players cheated: (yes/no by their names, or assign a percentage of likelihood if you prefer) Tony Gwynn Roger Clemens Hank Aaron Bruce Bochy Willie Mays Dan Marino John Elway Barry Bonds Terrell Davis Michael Chang Jerry Rice Mike Schmidt Brett Favre Roger Maris [/ QUOTE ] Manbearpig, now that you're back, looking forward to your answer on this one... [/ QUOTE ] All maybes? Some more likely than others.. [/ QUOTE ] So basically, you're not going to bother applying the same previous logic to anyone except Bonds. I understand. Believe me, you wouldn't be anywhere close to the first. [/ QUOTE ] Please explain. I think that it is possible every single person has cheated. Do I think their is a better chance Bonds cheated than some random? Yes.
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