BRAG - MMA is taking over!

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How do you think Bruce Lee would've done in MMA given that he is given some ground game?

[DannyOcean_]

eh, speculation, shmeckualtion. He was uber-athletic and spent his whole life devoted to martial arts, and he probably would have at least been able to become a pro. Don't know if he would have just barely been pro material or been a champion. It's impossible to say how good of a wrestler he would be, which is probably the most important part of MMA today.

[SNOWBALL]

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i don't have confidence in any martial art that doesn't involve full speed sparing



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I joined a new JKD school last week. When I asked them how often they spar, the teacher said "pretty often, it depends." Two classes later, a different teacher said "you can't spar until you are level two. WTF?
Maybe I'll test into level 2 pretty quickly, because their level 2 guys don't seem very good, and I think my training should be adequate. However, I'm very unsatisfied with their overall approach anyway.

AFAIK, it takes a year and a half or so to get to be level two. Now, I've been doing JKD since august. I'm not that good at it at all, but I've done well in the majority of my sparring matches, so I must not be awful at it. It makes no sense to me that they don't spar for one and a half years.

On my FIRST day of Judo, I learned 3 things:
1. I sucked
2. Everyone was better than me
3. OMGWTFBBQ PAIN

You spar EVERY class in Judo, and you spar on your first day, PERIOD.

And it's not one 3 minute round or 2 two minute rounds. It's several five minute rounds back to back with different opponents, many of whom are a lot better than you and are gonna make you feel it.

However, you get better. You keep going, and you get better. The best part is that when you get better, you KNOW that you've gotten better, because you can feel it, and your techniques are working. Your teacher doesn't have to pat you on the ass or give you a yellow belt to recognize your achievement. You OWN your achievement. You carry it with you wherever you go.

One of my senseis told me, when I failed to throw him "if I give it to you, it's not worth anything." That statement couldn't be more true. Unless you can earn your way in life, you'll always be dependent on handouts. Maybe that works for some things in America, but in the streets or in the ring, that's not how things work at all.

Americans want the bars lowered for them. They want electronic zapper machine belts that will make your abs stronger while you watch sit-coms on the couch. They want pills to make them happy or to make their dicks hard. That's all fine and great, if it makes you happy, but it doesn't work for martial arts.

Unfortunately, it looks like I recently got McDojoed by this last JKD school I joined, but the bright side is that I joined a different one already, and they spar every single class, and the instructor is really really good.

Wanna know how I know he's good? It's because I FELT it when he kneed me in the face on sunday [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tisthefire]

that's what i'm talking about, my bjj is the same way, i get my ass handed to me every single day but i keep going back the next day because i need to get better, i really need to be able to compete in this way, great stuff

[SNOWBALL]

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eh, speculation, shmeckualtion. He was uber-athletic and spent his whole life devoted to martial arts, and he probably would have at least been able to become a pro. Don't know if he would have just barely been pro material or been a champion. It's impossible to say how good of a wrestler he would be, which is probably the most important part of MMA today.


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Bruce trained with Gene Lebell (sp?) and achieved some rank in judo (not sure which) and I've seen photos of him working out with Wally Jay. I know he also worked out with some wrestlers. If you've ever watched his unfinished movie, the game of death, you can see him use a lot of groundwork.

I doubt he ever became compentent in any form of grappling, because he was primarily interested in efficient forms of self-defense for the street, and grappling is one of the dumbest things you can do in most street fights.

Before you pounce on me for that, lemme define what I'm talking about. I'm NOT talking about a 1-on-1 confrontation. I'm NOT talking about a challenge match. I'm NOT talking about a no-weapons fight. I'm NOT talking about something that can go on indefinitely.

I'm talking about a guy coming up to you and punching you, or pulling a knife. I'm talking about a fight in a crowded street where your assailant might have friends waiting for you.

Remember, Bruce Lee grew up in Hong Kong, and had been in many street fights. The reason he came to the US was that he beat up the son of a triad and had to flee for his life. For street confrontations, you should have certain goals in mind, and NONE of them can be fulfilled by pure grappling:

1. Stay mobile
2. Do as much damage as possible in as little time as possible
3. Get away as soon as possible
4. Don't get in too close because he may cut you up with a pocket knife

I don't know any grapplers who claim that their pure grappling abilities would be useful in anything more than a 1 on 1 confrontation. In fact, I recently read a BJJ book where the author stated the same thing. He, however, also stated that a striker cannot fight more than one opponent at the same time. That's absolutely false, and demonstrably so. Jordiepop has beaten 2 guys at once. I've beaten 2 guys at once.

Here's a turkish guy fighting off multiple attackers. Count the number of arm bars he uses. link

Bruce Lee realized though, that pure striking isn't a very good defense against grappling, and that's why he studied grappling systems. He was a great admirer of Judo, but criticized them for only using throws. His main interest was having totality in combat, and using "no limitation as limitation"

I think he could have been a great MMAer, but I think he would change quite a lot of things. For example, I think he would use the side-kick quite sparingly, as it is either very slow and telegraphic if delivered with power, or it is quite weak if it is delivered with no shoes on.

[Blarg]

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whatever the reason my point stands

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Nope. You think you're talking about the art, but you're talking about the teachers and the present-day culture. Couldn't be more different subjects. It's clear you don't even know jack sh*t about the arts. Not to mention, it's the culture you're exposed to as, presumably, an American. Which traditionalists still don't even teach.

[Blarg]

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Here's a good one. Good example of what i'm talking about.



McDojo guy is a 10th Degree Black Belt in Wu-Hsing (Tai Chi) Kung Fu
Founder of the Wu-Hsing Martial Arts System-Internal and External Arts
10th Degree Black Belt in Shuri Ryu-Okinawan Arts
10th Degree Black Belt in Chinese Kempo
10th Degree Black Belt in Okinawan and Japanese Kobudo and Chinese Weapons
10th Degree Black Belt in Shorie and Japanese Arts
9th Degree Black Belt United States Karate Alliance
9th Degree Black Belt Professional Karate Commission

and i would bet soooooooo much cash at ridiculous odds that there are multiple guys at the hardcore gym in athens who would school him completely. Not the teachers, the students. Maybe even the majority if he can't wrestle.

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Oof, this guy adds up to like 400th degree or whatever. I agree that this is way too much degree-ness. In America, you can grant yourself whatever degrees you want.

FWIW, I don't see much point in even putting your hands out in a guard while your feet are that close together and pointing in the same direction. You can work with physics, but can't over-rule physics.

[Blarg]

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eh, speculation, shmeckualtion. He was uber-athletic and spent his whole life devoted to martial arts, and he probably would have at least been able to become a pro. Don't know if he would have just barely been pro material or been a champion. It's impossible to say how good of a wrestler he would be, which is probably the most important part of MMA today.

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Some of the most highly respected people of the day took him extremely seriously. Ed Parker said he was one in a billion. He also said he had the biggest mouth in the world, and could back up every single thing he said. Hayward Nishioka, Pan-Am judo champion, raved about him too, and couldn't lay a hand on him because of his footwork. A golden gloves heavyweight champion who later became one of his first assistant instructors and had never lost in over 200 fights was terrified of him and got tossed around like a toy by him. The chances that he wouldn't have been good in the ring are incredibly small. A sort of perverse fantasy by the guys who should be appreciating him as the founder of their sport and who took for granted the idea of combining martial arts before they were even born and when much, much more was at stake.

[Blarg]

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eh, speculation, shmeckualtion. He was uber-athletic and spent his whole life devoted to martial arts, and he probably would have at least been able to become a pro. Don't know if he would have just barely been pro material or been a champion. It's impossible to say how good of a wrestler he would be, which is probably the most important part of MMA today.


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Bruce trained with Gene Lebell (sp?) and achieved some rank in judo (not sure which) and I've seen photos of him working out with Wally Jay. I know he also worked out with some wrestlers. If you've ever watched his unfinished movie, the game of death, you can see him use a lot of groundwork.

I doubt he ever became compentent in any form of grappling, because he was primarily interested in efficient forms of self-defense for the street, and grappling is one of the dumbest things you can do in most street fights.

Before you pounce on me for that, lemme define what I'm talking about. I'm NOT talking about a 1-on-1 confrontation. I'm NOT talking about a challenge match. I'm NOT talking about a no-weapons fight. I'm NOT talking about something that can go on indefinitely.

I'm talking about a guy coming up to you and punching you, or pulling a knife. I'm talking about a fight in a crowded street where your assailant might have friends waiting for you.

Remember, Bruce Lee grew up in Hong Kong, and had been in many street fights. The reason he came to the US was that he beat up the son of a triad and had to flee for his life. For street confrontations, you should have certain goals in mind, and NONE of them can be fulfilled by pure grappling:

1. Stay mobile
2. Do as much damage as possible in as little time as possible
3. Get away as soon as possible
4. Don't get in too close because he may cut you up with a pocket knife

I don't know any grapplers who claim that their pure grappling abilities would be useful in anything more than a 1 on 1 confrontation. In fact, I recently read a BJJ book where the author stated the same thing. He, however, also stated that a striker cannot fight more than one opponent at the same time. That's absolutely false, and demonstrably so. Jordiepop has beaten 2 guys at once. I've beaten 2 guys at once.

Here's a turkish guy fighting off multiple attackers. Count the number of arm bars he uses. link

Bruce Lee realized though, that pure striking isn't a very good defense against grappling, and that's why he studied grappling systems. He was a great admirer of Judo, but criticized them for only using throws. His main interest was having totality in combat, and using "no limitation as limitation"

I think he could have been a great MMAer, but I think he would change quite a lot of things. For example, I think he would use the side-kick quite sparingly, as it is either very slow and telegraphic if delivered with power, or it is quite weak if it is delivered with no shoes on.

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Good post, but the no shoes on thing doesn't make much sense. Japanese have been doing it with no shoes forever. Anatomy and flexibility have a great effect on exactly how the sidekick is configured, too, so it is different for everyone.

Bruce's left leg was shorter than his right. So is mine. For this reason, he found it more suitable to kick with his sidekick substantially turned, almost like a back kick. So do I. I agree that it can be telegraphic that way, but as anyone who as done sticking hands(from Wing Chun, Bruce's first and only style he spent a tremendous amount of time with) knows, you find your moments instinctively, and that depends more on sensitivity and reaction speed than a movement's inherent virtues.

Further, a sidekick delivered substantially as if it were a back kick is going to prioritize the heel. This type of kick, above all others, is going to obviate the need for shoes.

Personal anecdote: I never got my sidekick over thigh or hip height as non-telegraphic as I felt it needed to be, but I consistently wowed people by lifting them off the ground with it when kicking to the torso. Shoes don't make the difference in power. If I had tried to kick in traditional Japanese fashion, using the "knife-blade" of the side of the foot, I probably would have broken my foot, as my foot is oddly shaped for that and not at all a smooth round edge like some have. And I might well have strained or, who knows, even snapped my ankle trying. But with the heel, you can get tremendous power whether barefoot or not. Even though I view myself as a hand-striker and joint manipulator first, I still took a happy point of pride in having a tremendously powerful side kick pretty much taking advantages of my own genetic disparity the same way Bruce took advantage of his own.

Other notes:

Much agreed on Bruce's Hong Kong problems: he fought many street fights, including with instructors of other styles. Hong Kong was crazy in a way Americans don't understand to this day. Fooling around on the ground for five minutes was NOT an option.

Neither was wrestling opponents who outweighed you by 100 pounds. The size disparity between Americans even as teenagers and Bruce, who was known for his "gorilla body" by Hong Kong standards, was preposterous. He addressed this by concentrating on footwork and extremely rapid closing. To this day, his first assistant instructor, Jesse Glover, makes his students concentrate for in the range of two years simply on the close, which Glover says Lee practiced constantly. Other martial artists of his day agree that Lee's close was almost freaky, and that he could cover 10 or 20 feet at a speed that they could scarce understand. Practice!

The close itself came from western fencing. Combine that extremely practiced speed with the extremely practiced, trained perception of movement that is central to wing chun, and you had a man who prioritized getting in from a distance at top speed, but was extremely comfortable up close. The only thing he wasn't comfortable with was standing toe to toe exchanging blows (but wing chun obviates the need for that) and wrestling/judo/jiu-jitsu. Luckily, wing chun and similar arts like tai chi teach you so much about the way the body moves that, unlike an art like, say, karate or kempo, you have the knowledge of balance and how joints work to give you a chance when you're not perfectly upright. But still, to wrestle, you have to know how to wrestle.

Obviously, Lee, whose entire enormous ego was bound up in not ever losing a fight, would have done what it took to make sure his fighting art was complete. That had been his unusual, very public effort for more than a decade before he died. And when he was crowing about it, he was pretty much a lunatic voice alone in the wilderness.

That anybody could chide him for not being a mixed martial artist is completely ignorant and laughably absurd.

[tisthefire]

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whatever the reason my point stands

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Nope. You think you're talking about the art, but you're talking about the teachers and the present-day culture. Couldn't be more different subjects. It's clear you don't even know jack sh*t about the arts. Not to mention, it's the culture you're exposed to as, presumably, an American. Which traditionalists still don't even teach.

[/ QUOTE ]obviously i'm refering to what is available to me, the watered down bs version of karate or tae kwon do does not deserve to be considered the same as the original, so, i don't have confidence in the tae kwon do taught in los angeles, if there is another tae kwon do that i have not seen that has the same name but is different, then i will have to judge that if and when i see it, happy doofus?