very unusual QJo hand

[bicyclekick]

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Do I have a leak in my game if I fold that preflop ?

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I'd sure say so.

[PokerBob]

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Do I have a leak in my game if I fold that preflop ?

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well, i don't think you are making a losing play (like limping K4o would be), but you are definitely passing on a winning situation.

[damaniac]

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Do I have a leak in my game if I fold that preflop ?

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well, i don't think you are making a losing play (like limping K4o would be), but you are definitely passing on a winning situation.

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Isn't this functionally the same as losing money? I mean, a call worth -.05BB is the same as a fold where a call would have been worth .05BB right?

[PokerBob]

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Do I have a leak in my game if I fold that preflop ?

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well, i don't think you are making a losing play (like limping K4o would be), but you are definitely passing on a winning situation.

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Isn't this functionally the same as losing money? I mean, a call worth -.05BB is the same as a fold where a call would have been worth .05BB right?

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no. folding is 0 ev. playing a total turd is -ev.

[Barry]

C'mon Daddy...

If playing QJo in this situation is +EV .20BB and folding has an EV of 0, folding it is giving up EV so it is a -EV decision relative to calling.

[PokerBob]

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C'mon Daddy...

If playing QJo in this situation is +EV .20BB and folding has an EV of 0, folding it is giving up EV so it is a -EV decision relative to calling.

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ok. but if it is 0.2BB +ev and calling with K4o (for the sake of argument) is 0.2BB -ev, i don't think we can say that folding QJo and calling with K4o are the "same" ev wise.

[ArturiusX]

How about folding thus reducing our winrate is -ev, because we like to maximise our winrate.

[RED_RAIN]

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How about folding thus reducing our winrate is -ev, because we like to maximise our winrate.

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Just because someone (not pointing at you) plays a hand that is 0.004 EV or whatever number preflop because they got it from PokerStove doesn't mean it will actually get them that in winrate. They still gotta know how to play "perfect" postflop. For MANY players, they can't or don't know how to play these smaller EV hands. THUS, it's +EV for them to fold these hands.

Also, those generators are looking at random holdings of other opponents (doesn't take into account their abilities from what I know) and looking at the hand over a huge sample, which how often do we get 5 limpers with 3 loos/idiot, 1 TAG, the moon is shining, and we sit with a 0.28 +EV hand? There are players who will give up this little EV because they won't know or aren't comfortable (same thing) of playing it postflop.

[csi]

I can't believe that almost everyone thinks this is a good play. IMO this is a losing play, and you got lucky. On a highly coordinated board with 2 clubs after a bet and a call you decide to raise with QJ?? A board like this could easily have hit these 2 limpers.

This is a clear fold on the flop.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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How about folding thus reducing our winrate is -ev, because we like to maximise our winrate.

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Just because someone (not pointing at you) plays a hand that is 0.004 EV or whatever number preflop because they got it from PokerStove doesn't mean it will actually get them that in winrate. They still gotta know how to play "perfect" postflop. For MANY players, they can't or don't know how to play these smaller EV hands. THUS, it's +EV for them to fold these hands.

Also, those generators are looking at random holdings of other opponents (doesn't take into account their abilities from what I know) and looking at the hand over a huge sample, which how often do we get 5 limpers with 3 loos/idiot, 1 TAG, the moon is shining, and we sit with a 0.28 +EV hand? There are players who will give up this little EV because they won't know or aren't comfortable (same thing) of playing it postflop.

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People saying to play these hands aren't saying that because of any hot-and-cold sim. They're saying it because of the most important fundamental in limit hold 'em: position. It's just hard to make a lot of mistakes against mediocre hands in an unraised pot with position.

Also, some of the distaste for QJ is supposed to come from the fact that it is often dominated preflop, but this is less of a concern in aggressive online games in which people virtually never limp with hands like AJ and KQ. The only hand that dominates QJ that is limped with at any regularity at 10/20+ is KJ. On the other hand, people will frequently limp with hands like QT, JT, J9s that QJ actually dominates.