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#31
03-25-2006, 08:29 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
[ QUOTE ]
Whenever they cricitize you, just say "ICM, B!tch". [/ QUOTE ] If I wasn't worried about them discovering what ICM is, this would be perfect. 
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#33
03-25-2006, 08:35 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Whenever they cricitize you, just say "ICM, B!tch". [/ QUOTE ] If I wasn't worried about them discovering what ICM is, this would be perfect. [/ QUOTE ] A winning cash game player may not know the specific name ICM, but will know the concept. The people who don't probably aren't winning cash game players.
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#34
03-25-2006, 08:42 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, there's not much to get. I was looking for a picture of someone rolling their eyes, because this was a pretty friendly conversation and then you were a dick to bones. I didn't find a reasonably funny eye rolling pic, but this one seemed kind of entertaining. [/ QUOTE ] It was a sweet pic. I imagine the tone of the conversation changes when you go from it being entirely SNG regulars to including cash game players. Obviously there are subtleties to SNG strategy, but I think a good cash game player will adapt to SNG's reasonably well faster than a good SNG player will adapt to cash games comparably well. I just don't think SNG's are that complicated.
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#35
03-25-2006, 08:54 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
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Tourney donks, Saying winning cash game players are negative EV in tourneys is like saying varsity football players would be bench players on the freshman squad because they don't understand the subtleties of less complicated offensive schemes. -James Don't embarass yourself by trying to convince anyone that SnG poker is in any way more complicated than a cash game. [/ QUOTE ] Not sure where people got the -$EV thing from. The point isn't that top cash game players are -$EV in tournaments (because if you're a top-notch $-game player (very good cEV player) you really have to suck at tourney strategy or be playing in a shark-infested tourney for that to be the case). I also think SNGs are less complicated than just about any other form of poker (don't think many here would argue otherwise). I posted it here b/c everyone here plays tourneys, and this is where I mostly post. I was simply pointing out the incongruity between one goofing on people for suboptimal play in one form of poker (suboptimal play often accompanied by an inflated opinion of a tourney donk's cash game abilities)...then turning around and engaging in suboptimal play oneself in another area of poker (tournaments) with a bit of an inflated opinion of one's abilities at that form of poker. Maybe a lesser degree of an offense, but as a "prosecutor," you're held up to a higher standard... More and more (IME) I come across the cash game player who rationalizes thier suboptimal tourney play with an attitude that tournaments are a form of poker beneath them not worthy of their time to study and get better at. If they're a less complicated form of poker, and one has a lot of improving to do at them, but conducts themself with an air of "holier than thou," that's an attitude worthy of poking fun at IMO. The overusage of the "tourney donk" phrase is somewhat symptomatic of this attitude. Hence, the creation of this thread (observation out loud of phenomenon, opportunity for creative wordplay and playful chiding of those who engage in this behavior). And not all cash game specialists act this way, I've met a number who are very open and humble about the fact that they don't have the feel for a lot of tournament situations, and are unsure what to do when ____, or how to react to ____. Not surprisingly, the older the player, the more likely they are to carry themselves with this sort of humility.
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#36
03-25-2006, 08:56 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
[ QUOTE ]
...Banana Pirates... [/ QUOTE ] I have no idea where this came from, or why it makes me laugh, but it does...
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#37
03-25-2006, 08:58 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
a friend of mine (ring game guy) said it best, when he sat at some sngs...
[ QUOTE ] "I feel like a brain surgeon driving a dumptruck" [/ QUOTE ] He still performed OK...but you could tell much of his toolbox wasnt getting used.
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#38
03-25-2006, 09:00 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
Gramps,
"the cash game player with litte/no grasp on the difference between cEV and $EV, who takes on bad confrontations at inopportune times, who whiffs on the subtleties of bubble strategy and then bemoans his fate when his faulty strategy gets him knocked out/blinds him down unneccessarily, who lacks an understanding of the dynamics of big blind poker and complains it's a no-skill crapshoot while making fundamental mistake after mistake, etc., etc." The last thing you want in your tournies is more top cash game players. No top cash game players have any trouble with the types of concepts you describe here. Many deep stack cash NL players often have a far better grasp at these concepts than tourney players. As for the comments in this thread regarding things like Poker Superstars or whatever, I am not familiar with that show, but in most of these televised shows, the cash game players that play in them are not NL experts. There are countless very successful tourney players who consistently get their asses handed to them in cash games, and not very many tourney specialists who are very tough cash players. On the flip side, I don't know of any top cash game players who have any trouble doing quite well in tourneys and know of many cash game specialists who are incredibly tough tourney players. The fact of the matter is, cash game play is just a lot harder than tourney play. Taking into account the few tourney-specific wrinkles is very easy for a cash game player. On the other hand, one can be a successful tourney player without having anywhere near the knowledge necessary to be a good cash game player.
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#39
03-25-2006, 09:01 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
Gramps, the usage of tourneydonk is not because tourneydonks play a suboptimal +EV strategy in cash games, it is because they come and donate big $$. If you have ever been in a city where a WPT or WSOP tournament was going on, you'd have a better appreciation of this term. I have played fairly sizeable cash games with many respected tourney players, and as a rule they were almost all awful. A few were good, but the rest left me wondering how they got their roll in the first place. No offense or anything, just the facts.
-James
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#40
03-25-2006, 09:05 PM
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Re: Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?
[ QUOTE ]
Gramps, I think it would be pretty hard for you to find a person that is a winning cash game player and can't win at tournaments. [/ QUOTE ] I agree for the most part. All depends on what games, winrate, etc., but if you're a very good chip-EV player, it's going to be hard to do poorly at tournaments, because cEV and $EV mirror each very closely the vast majority of the time. Also, even the highest buy-in tournaments are fish-infested. Now, if a cash-game only player started playing Step 5s/big blind SNGs against a shark-only lineup...they might not be a huge donator per game (because their cEV will still be pretty solid), but they'd donate at a pretty good rate. But that's stretching things a bit to create bad situations like that - and who's going to take some of their 400/800 winnings and donk off 6 figures in higher buy-in SNGs without figuring it out and improving pretty quickly...
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