First time in 2007? 1/2NL

[tubasteve]

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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.374% 53.60% 04.77% 57821754 5149089.00 { KK+, QcQs, QdQs, QhQs, AcKc }
Hand 1: 41.626% 36.85% 04.77% 39755220 5149089.00 { KK }

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For the second villan, that range is wayyyyy to wide.
This type of player would never ever 4bet AK, let alone felt it. Same goes for QQ to a lesser degree.

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you understand that i gave him just one of the 16 possible combos of either AKs or AKo, and only 3 of the 6 QQ possibilities, right? his PFR is 7, thats a range equal to something like this:

88+,ATs+,KJs+,AQo+

or probably something similar but weighted maybe more towards small pairs than stuff like KJs.


if his 3-bet % is as little as 2% thats this range:

QQ+,AKs,AKo


so you cant tell me my original range is too wide for a 20/7.

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Dude, this is a 4bet.
Though I might agree on the 3 betting range, his 50BB 4 betting range does not include any unpaired hands, and almost certianlnly not QQ.

Also this player is a 27/7/1. He is a nut miner.
This type of player's MO is to not put any big bets or rasies in without the 1st or 2nd nuts.

These players are risk adverse. They stay far away from coinflips, regardless of metagame

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fine ill take out the whopping 1 combo of AK, oh look the %'s change so much!

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.587% 54.60% 04.99% 56090922 5127906.00 { KK+, QcQs, QdQs, QhQs }
Hand 1: 40.413% 35.42% 04.99% 36391506 5127906.00 { KK }

[tubasteve]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.201% 58.68% 05.52% 54258816 5104026.00 { KK+, QcQd, QcQs }
Hand 1: 35.799% 30.28% 05.52% 27997548 5104026.00 { KK }



to be fair, heres an even tigher range to show you how absurd folding is since our equity is this good if he even does this just 1/3 of the time he has QQ

[corsakh]

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Errr.. Some people obviously play too high for their own good.
ps Sorry, but "if utg came over the top i could find a fold" is gem.
pss If 16/9 and 18/10 are "nits".. whatever.

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if utg comes over the top it is a fold.

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agreed

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UTG 3bet + CO 4bet provides more than enough cushion for UTG to jam the pot with AK. Even if his range is only AA, KK, AKs, he needs to do it with AKo like 10% of the time for us to have the correct equity. If we add QQ, its no brainer.

[duh]

More like this:

Hand 0: 77.382% 70.35% 07.03% 50594604 5056266.00 { KK+ }
Hand 1: 22.618% 15.59% 07.03% 11209632 5056266.00 { KK }

[Unknown Soldier]

as an upcoming player i agree tuba. It helps to have a set of rules for you to play solid poker. Rules like "never open limp", "don't call a raise with AT type hands oop", "never fold KK pf", "don't bluff players with high vpip". etc. These rules will lead to a solid game and stop you from making big mistakes and will speed up your progress. However, solid is not optimal. That's what I'm talking about. As you develop as a player all these rules should be completely forgotten, as each situation is different. Leaving any of them in makes for a bad mindset and ultimately you will not be able to develop past a certain point, because you are boxing yourself in with these blanket statements.

[BombayBadboy]

I agree alot with tuba here though. Calling here with KK is neverever a huge mistake, and will have no real effect on your winrate.

No real effect on your winrate are the keywords here.

I'm not saying that you should literally always call your stack off pre with KK, mind you.

[duh]

FWIW, I think tuba's arguement (never folding KK) is akin to never folding a set. Both concepts are touted in SSNL and MSNL, because you can't go wrong if you never fold those hands. This concept is taught at this level not because it is optimal, but because our handreading/situational skills are not fully devloped.

I belive that as we gain experience, we gain more confidence in our reading abilities. I think HSNL'ers crush the games not only because they extract more value, but they also save a few stacks in these spots. Saving even 1 buyin every 25k hands in these rare spots will have a real effect on your BB/100

[BombayBadboy]

HSNL players don't think different then MSNL and SSNL when it comes to sets and folding KK PF..

[duh]

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HSNL players don't think different then MSNL and SSNL when it comes to sets and folding KK PF..

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The HSNL forum at least permits the discussion of such folds.

[jordiepop]

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Errr.. Some people obviously play too high for their own good.
ps Sorry, but "if utg came over the top i could find a fold" is gem.
pss If 16/9 and 18/10 are "nits".. whatever.

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if utg comes over the top it is a fold.

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agreed

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UTG 3bet + CO 4bet provides more than enough cushion for UTG to jam the pot with AK. Even if his range is only AA, KK, AKs, he needs to do it with AKo like 10% of the time for us to have the correct equity. If we add QQ, its no brainer.

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i said COULD find a fold, to say its gem ( sarcasm) is a bit much. utg shoving qq or ak in this spot is pretty bad imo