|
|
#31
11-15-2007, 05:26 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: I 4bet with A8s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Going exclusively based on equity is incorrect imo. The VAST majority of a light 4-bet equity comes from FE. Ax increases FE as it slightly increase the probability that his 3-bet is being made lightly. The secondary value from your hand comes in postflop playability - inducing mistakes versus making them yourself. Actual raw hand value at showdown is a somewhat distant third. [/ QUOTE ] And something I didn't even mention is that having more equity can actually put you in some pretty [censored] spots. I mean if you have 4-bet with 22 and your opponent shoves with a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ then you're obligated to call. It's going to be marginally profitable and seriously send your variance through the roof. Whereas A8 has significantly less equity and is easy to get away from in the same spot. [/ QUOTE ] Wait if you're 4betting with Ax hands it should be with the intention of calling a shove, not folding. Also go pokerstove small pocket pairs against villains pushing range and you will they have more equity than Ax hands. [/ QUOTE ] Did you read/understand what I wrote? I know small pairs have more equity than Ax. It was the basis of everything I said. And you are also being very dogmatic in your thinking, which is wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] 4-bet calling is not a rule, nor necessary for metagame nor equity. Nor is 4-bet folding. It heavily depends on your overall game, your opponent, situation, etc.. [/ QUOTE ] The Whole 4bet/fold-4bet/call is beyond the scope of this post. But I do think 4bet-folding Ax is OK in some situations but overall you should be 4bet/calling with your 30% real equity to the pot. The real question I want to get back too is if calling 3bets in position with Axs type hands is more optimal than 4betting. Reasons why I think Flat calling the 3bet is more profitable: 1) We have position in a 3bet pot. 2) Our hand is ahead of our opponents 3betting range (presuming he is 3betting light, which OP confirmed) Reasons why 4betting is better: 1) Our hand doesn't have great postflop playing ability 2)We have more fold equity because the Ace in our hand discounts AA/AK type hands. Another thing I want to note: The kicker on the Axs type hands matters. A2-A5 are better than A6-A7. A8/A9 are comparable to A2-A5. 
|
|
#32
11-15-2007, 06:11 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
Ok I just talked to a msnl all star about this hand and he agreed with me that calling IP is better.
Reasons why CALLING IS BETTER IP. If he is 3betting light he will be weak the vast majority of the time. i.e. I can knock him off his hand on later streets. My hand is less likely to be dominated if they are 3betting light (I alluded to this earlier). And I will flop quite a few strong equity positions with A8s. so yeah 4betting isn't as optimal.
|
|
#34
11-15-2007, 06:15 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
if you aren't 4betting strictly for value, then it doesn't really matter what you hold as you are crushed by his calling range.
if you have a good table image you can shove when you are called and they will make suprising folds. someone folded KK overpair to a flop shove of mine after i 4bet. i have a post about it currently
|
|
#35
11-15-2007, 06:16 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
[ QUOTE ]
meh say u call his 3bet and he cbets on this same exact board.. what do you do? [/ QUOTE ] as default? float. He really can't continue on the turn with the majority of his c-betting range.
|
|
#36
11-15-2007, 06:23 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
[ QUOTE ]
all that matters is if we are ahead of his 3betting range. [/ QUOTE ] No, all that matters is if we can play the hand profitably after our preflop decision. Or do you just call lots of re-raises because you have 50.1% equity against the reraising range without a postflop plan? edit: After reading the rest of the thread, your arguments make sense, and if you have a profitable plan it's fine, but the statement I quoted is still silly.
|
|
#37
11-15-2007, 06:24 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] meh say u call his 3bet and he cbets on this same exact board.. what do you do? [/ QUOTE ] as default? float. He really can't continue on the turn with the majority of his c-betting range. [/ QUOTE ] cool
|
|
#38
11-15-2007, 06:27 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] all that matters is if we are ahead of his 3betting range. [/ QUOTE ] No, all that matters is if we can play the hand profitably after our preflop decision. Or do you just call lots of re-raises because you have 50.1% equity against the reraising range without a postflop plan? [/ QUOTE ] lol i already outlined my plan
|
|
#39
11-15-2007, 06:29 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
To those who like calling IP wit A8 here I really hope you make a decent amount of moves when you wiff. Because if not you are my favorite kind of villain, the ones who call 3-bets fairly light and then fold flop way too frequently.
You can not make money here by calling and only continue with an ace or a draw. Since you are not even guaranteed to on average make money when an ace flop. You need some solid reads that you can push villain away post flop to call this here. Who cares how our preflop equity is against his range? What happens when the flop comes T72r and he bets his wiffed KJs?
|
|
#40
11-15-2007, 06:29 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: I 4bet with A8s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] all that matters is if we are ahead of his 3betting range. [/ QUOTE ] No, all that matters is if we can play the hand profitably after our preflop decision. Or do you just call lots of re-raises because you have 50.1% equity against the reraising range without a postflop plan? [/ QUOTE ] lol i already outlined my plan [/ QUOTE ] yeah i responded as soon as i saw that post w/o finishing the thread, see edit
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
