Rumsfeld found promoting propaganda about terror threats

[boracay]

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Yes, part of the reason they terrorize us is because we are over there. The other part? It's in their flippin' religion. "slay the disbelievers".

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do you an exact phrase for this?

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Actually there are a great many phrases like this, and regarding the duty of Muslims to subjugate the non-believers, etc. etc. etc. and these verses are found in many places in the Koran. Many of those verses have in fact been quoted verbatim on this forum.

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Yes and there are no phrases in the Bible about killing unbelievers and stoning sinners to death. Oh wait.......

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Uhhh. Relevance? We aren't discussing "which religion is better" we're talking about islamic terrorism.

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Many ignorants equalize Islam with islamic terrorism to find an explanation for a superiority of their religion not realizing how pathetic that is.

[Taso]

Considering I don't have a religion, as most posters here don't, and also considering WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD, that wasn't the intention.

[boracay]

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Considering I don't have a religion, as most posters here don't, and also considering WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD, that wasn't the intention.

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I definitely didn't have you on my mind after reading your comment. Sorry for misunderstanding. My bad English. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[John Kilduff]

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Yes, part of the reason they terrorize us is because we are over there. The other part? It's in their flippin' religion. "slay the disbelievers".

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do you an exact phrase for this?

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Actually there are a great many phrases like this, and regarding the duty of Muslims to subjugate the non-believers, etc. etc. etc. and these verses are found in many places in the Koran. Many of those verses have in fact been quoted verbatim on this forum.

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Yes and there are no phrases in the Bible about killing unbelievers and stoning sinners to death. Oh wait.......

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And Jesus preached the duty of all Christians to subjugate the non-believers and force them to live under Christian or Jewish law, and Jesus personally conducted wars of conquest, and Jesus personally captured and kept slaves, and Jesus preached to fight your enemies (rather than to love and forgive them), and Jesus personally had executed 600 defenseless Jews at Medina, just like Mohammed did - right? I mean, the differences between what Jesus and Mohammed each preached and lived by were negligible, correct? Jesus did all the above things just like Mohammed did. Got it. No wonder people can't see any difference. The two religions are as alike as two peas.

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If you go by the book, Christianity has much less tolerance for other beliefs than Islam.

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I do not believe that is so, but am curious to know why you think it is so.

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And the Mohammed as you refer to is no better or worse than the David of the bible. Which is who he should be compared to; he is seen as a prophet - not a god like Jesus is seen as.

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In Islam, Jesus is seen as a Prophet not a God. So the comparison of Jesus with Mohammed is very apt, because in Islam, Mohammed is also considered a Prophet (the greatest and final Prophet, and Allah's Messenger). Also, both may be considered the central figures of their respective religions.

[John Kilduff]

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Yes, part of the reason they terrorize us is because we are over there. The other part? It's in their flippin' religion. "slay the disbelievers".

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do you an exact phrase for this?

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Actually there are a great many phrases like this, and regarding the duty of Muslims to subjugate the non-believers, etc. etc. etc. and these verses are found in many places in the Koran. Many of those verses have in fact been quoted verbatim on this forum.

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Strictly those passages typically refer to 'kafir', which mainstream Muslim authorities say does not apply to Christians and Jews, since they are also People of the Book. This is supported in various way, such as passages that refer to 'kaffir and the People of the Book,' and passages impling that Christians and Jews may go to heaven.

A liberal interpretation would be that the term is intended to specifically refer to the pagan Arabs of the middle east at the time, who persecuted the early Muslims. This makes sense if you consider that the Muslims only began using the term to describe African non-Muslims around the 15th century, according to wiki.

And some Muslims interpret it in the way you do, but not most.

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I can see this thread will quickly turn into a deep debate about such things. I've explained, cited and debated on such things at length before and I can't do it all again right now. I'll say that I disagree with your broadly applied summary. In particular I'll refer you to the passage in which Muslims are enjoined to kill the last Jew on the Earth, including the one hiding behind the rock. I'm sure you know which passage I am referring to. Additionally, under Islamic rule, the so-called "Protected" (read extorted and legally subjugated) Peoples of the Book suffered vastly unequal rights compared to the rights Muslims enjoyed.

Most Muslim clerics probably do not interpret Islam as you think most Muslims do. I'll grant that there may be a difference between how clerics and laypersons typically interpret religion, but generally speaking I'll side with the clerics when it comes to interpretation. After all, it is they who have studied Islam their whole lives. And if the typical clerics' interpretation is stricter (or more "radical") than the typical layperson's interpretation, whose interpretation do you suppose is generally correct? Remember, the Koran is the direct and perfect word of Allah, not to be changed or dismissed in any way. The clerics, as radical as their pronouncements may appear to you or I, have a pretty good handle on what the Koran says, especially viewed in the context of Mohammed's life and other key writings such as the hadiths.

It is generally a mistake to look at Islam through a Western lens. It needs to be looked at through an Islamic lens and then it becomes a lot clearer. The so-called "radical" Islamists are simply following the dictates of the Koran and the example of Mohammed's life. They are truly religious in their own way.

Following Jesus = forgiving and loving even those who are your enemies. Following Mohammed = fighting those who are your enemies and who are opposed to Islamic Law (which is Allah's Law). The Islamists will tell you this is how it is; it's not just me saying it. I respect them for having the strength and clarity to follow their convictions even though some of their convictions are things I do not agree with. This is what the West is lacking: a belief in itself and the strength to uphold and be strong. The Islamists are braver and more solid than weak-willed, morally relativistic Westerners. I happen to think the Islamists are tragically misguided on some things, but they are telling you the truth when they tell you what the Koran says.

Thanks for reading.

[Jamougha]

John,

bear in mind that there is no central point of authority in Islam and clerics disagree on interpretations. There is no reasonable sense in which there can be a single 'correct' interpretation unless you can build a time machine and ask Mohammed. In reality you are describing one interpretation, not some fundamental truth of Islam.

[John Kilduff]

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John,

bear in mind that there is no central point of authority in Islam and clerics disagree on interpretations. There is no reasonable sense in which there can be a single 'correct' interpretation unless you can build a time machine and ask Mohammed. In reality you are describing one interpretation, not some fundamental truth of Islam.

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Well, I agree there are somewhat various interpretations (as well as sects), but generally speaking, most clerics and the Islamists seem to agree with each other on main points. It's not like the Koran can be interpreted in just any manner whatsoever.

As far as a time machine and asking Mohammed, well, let's look at his life story. That should give a pretty good illustration of how he interpreted Islam, shouldn't it? So shouldn't that be a pretty authoritative interpretation in itself?

[Subfallen]

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Following Jesus = forgiving and loving even those who are your enemies. Following Mohammed = fighting those who are your enemies and who are opposed to Islamic Law (which is Allah's Law).

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John -

Am I wrong to say that, according to Christianity, Jesus is going to personally oversee the eternal torture of everyone who rejects His Divinity?

If I'm right, then please expound on how Christianity is in ANY way more tolerant than or morally superior to Islam. Or how Jesus was in any sense more admirable than Mohammad as an example of forgiveness or mercy.

[John Kilduff]

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Following Jesus = forgiving and loving even those who are your enemies. Following Mohammed = fighting those who are your enemies and who are opposed to Islamic Law (which is Allah's Law).

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John -

Am I wrong to say that, according to Christianity, Jesus is going to personally oversee the eternal torture of everyone who rejects His Divinity?

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Yes, I believe that is wrong.

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If I'm right, then please expound on how Christianity is in ANY way more tolerant than or morally superior to Islam. Or how Jesus was in any sense more admirable than Mohammad as an example of forgiveness or mercy.

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Well, as above, I believe that view is very mistaken.

As for how Jesus was different than Mohammed regarding mercy and forgiveness:

Jesus willingly went to the cross and gave his love and forgiveness even to those who were killing and tormenting him. He asked his Father in heaven to please "forgive them, for they know not what they do". Jesus also had instructed his followers to turn the other cheek when struck, and if a man asks you to give him your coat, to give him your shirt also.

Mohammed led a great many war raids, wars of conquest, and promoted and oversaw the taking of booty and slaves. Mohammed had ~600 Jewish men bound and executed at Medina, in front of their wives and children, AFTER those Jews had surrendered to him in expectation of merciful treatment. The children and women of those men became his slaves and concubines, and the slaves and concubines of his warriors. Mohammed repeatedly promised his warriors booty in this life, and sensual rewards in the next world. He made good on his earthly promise, that much we know.

Well, go ahead and compare their compassionate natures and actions for yourself.

[Subfallen]

Oh, you definitely win the argument that Jesus' earthly example beats Mohammad's 8 days a week.

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Yes, I believe that [eternal conscious torment of unbelievers] is wrong.

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But is this the consensus belief of Christian scholars? Who, after all, have dedicated their lives to understanding Jesus' message and His apostles' doctrines?

Or are you relying on your own (inauthoritative) interpretation of Christianity? In the same way that centrist Muslims also rely on dilutions of their own religion's extremism?