Restating My "Religion Does Good" Post More Explicitly

[Phil153]

A dodge? How is pointing out that most of the world's Christians are FORBIDDEN BIRTH CONTROL a dodge?

You don't think married couples that are FORBIDDEN BIRTH CONTROL are going to breed more?

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There's something in it that makes the atheists understandably uncomfortable. When a cohort is not reproducing, something is amiss.

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Uninhibited breeding makes me uncomfortable - it's already causing tremendous suffering and environmental destruction in many parts of the world.

In addition to the points I made above, people who lead successful and busy lives tend not to reproduce as much. By your reasoning, something is amiss with more intelligent people, since they breed less, and people with <90 IQs are raving geniuses according to your strange Darwinian view of the world.

We're not animals...and indeed the further we are from animals, the less we're going to breed, since other things consume our lives, our time and our thoughts. That's what's happening in the West, and it's not that hard to understand. Poverty, stupidity and lack of options = breeding.

[madnak]

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Most people in this world are a lot more concerned with prayers being answered and going to heaven than they are with human dignity and self determination

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If this were true, there would be far more than vague correlations indicating the power of religion to provide happiness. As it is, even if we accept that the correlation between religion and happiness describes a direct causal link (which it almost certainly does not), regular exercise still has a much greater impact on happiness than religion. It would be unreasonable to conclude that religion can provide a greater benefit than regular exercise, which is a low bar as I see it.

[remski]

Although it may or may not be true, that regular exercise is a greater influence on someones degree of happiness than religious affiliation, exercise will not be able to provide a sense of purpose and meaning in ones life as religion can.

Religion as a social institution provides people with auxiliary benefits. Even if the philosophical needs of churchgoers can be met through other means, I still do not predict religious influence waining anytime soon.

I apologise if my posts are somehow illogical, but I am enjoying this discussion, and desired to add my viewpoint.

[David Sklansky]

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Most people in this world are a lot more concerned with prayers being answered and going to heaven than they are with human dignity and self determination

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If this were true, there would be far more than vague correlations indicating the power of religion to provide happiness. As it is, even if we accept that the correlation between religion and happiness describes a direct causal link (which it almost certainly does not), regular exercise still has a much greater impact on happiness than religion. It would be unreasonable to conclude that religion can provide a greater benefit than regular exercise, which is a low bar as I see it.

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Religion doesn't provide happiness to most people but rather lessens their unhappiness. Exercise doesn't do that to the same extent. Plus it is a lot harder to stick to.

Meanwhile if I am wrong, then why are the great majority of moderately intelligent people religious? Is it because of other psychological flaws? Is it because you have to be more than moderately intelligent to be an atheist? (I can think of three regular posters here who tend to disprove that). Or is it because theists are actually correct?

[Subfallen]

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Is it because you have to be more than moderately intelligent to be an atheist? (I can think of three regular posters here who tend to disprove that).

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Me, Nielsio, and...?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Meanwhile if I am wrong, then why are the great majority of moderately intelligent people religious? </font>

The answer is upbringing and education. The majority were likely brain-washed as children and most do not possess post graduate degrees or a high level of education in math or the hard sciences. Once in a great while, an extremely intelligent and very educated person will slip through the cracks who remains a theist, but this is an exception and very rare. There's no denying that skepticism increases among the post-graduate population.

There's also no disputing your main point, but I'm not convinced that the realization of there being no such things as gods would have the detrimental effect on the "average" theist that you're implying it would. I was an average theist when I came upon this realization. I was stunned at first and hell yeah, I had to re-evaluate my whole world. But in the end, I not only coped, but became a HAPPIER and more balanced person! Many of the things that really bothered me (why kids die of cancer, how some of the outrageous stories in the bible could be true, etc.), suddenly made sense and were no longer the perplexing problems they had been for me. So if I'm any kind of example we can conclude that some would actually find solace in the truth.

[soon2bepro]

Going by their word, true believers would keep believing no matter what.

And I think rational ones would be quite relieved. Maybe after a few years of mourning.

I disagree with you. But I do see your point.

However consider that right now, most educated people who claim to be theists, aren't really so. They don't really believe this nonsense, they just think it's a good thing to believe in it. And all in all, most theists aren't that religious. Religion isn't such a big part of their lives.

In my life I have personally converted several friends from theism to skepticism, and while some of them had a tough time at first, they ended up much happier and free in only a couple years time. People who can't bear giving up religion won't listen to any claims or arguments about the falsehood of their belief.

[InTheDark]

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Uninhibited breeding makes me uncomfortable - it's already causing tremendous suffering and environmental destruction in many parts of the world.


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World population is soon coming to a peak, last I heard. A couple more decades and the growth will end.

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In addition to the points I made above, people who lead successful and busy lives tend not to reproduce as much. By your reasoning, something is amiss with more intelligent people, since they breed less, and people with &lt;90 IQs are raving geniuses according to your strange Darwinian view of the world.

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You're free to attribute nonsense to me if that is your style. I'm interested in why reasonably comfortable, sectarian Western society of two generations ago was able to reproduce at above replacement levels and today, secular countries like Italy and Spain have birthrates near to 1.2 per couple. There was no huge spike in cohort intelligence, was there? No, they lost their religion. They also became somewhat more comfortable but not by a huge measure. I need to firgue out why, if they're soo happy, they fail to indulge in what many folks insist is the greatest pleasure in life, raising children. This from a atheist with only one child and none in my future.

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We're not animals...

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What a very sectarian thing for you to say. There's hope for you yet.

[tame_deuces]

I remember that your big point on birth rates has been answered thoroughly several times, including why it most likely has no connection to atheism.

But you spam it in so many threads that most people don't really bother with it anymore.

[InTheDark]

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I remember that your big point on birth rates has been answered thoroughly several times, including why it most likely has no connection to atheism.

But you spam it in so many threads that most people don't really bother with it anymore.

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The atheists have a good alibi but so far no convincing explaination.

If you prefer a one sided debate use 'ignore'.