|
|
#31
10-24-2007, 06:28 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Even if that perception is proved wrong, the entity will still experience "free will." [/ QUOTE ] Ok, here you're defining free will as merely a feeling or a state of mind. That's not the traditional definition. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe you're right, but I'm not so sure. What is the "traditional" definition? More to the point, if the notion of "free will" is not rooted in human experience, then how exactly is it meaningful? 
|
|
#33
10-25-2007, 08:52 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
You're just maneuvering around the argument, trying to avoid it and the conclusions one can draw from it.
[ QUOTE ] "Morality," "justice," and "ethics" are also just empty words that refer to real consequences. [/ QUOTE ] See, you try to avoid the point and make those sound like true concepts. They're not. They're useful, but in the same way that a lie can be useful. They're not useful for their content, they're useful for the reaction they cause on people. And they're NOT necessary. [ QUOTE ] Whether or not this meets the definition of "free will" just depends on perspective. [/ QUOTE ] My definition of "free will" is: Will that is not caused by any portion reality. (in other words, Will that isn't a part of reality, though it can perceive reality and choose to act accordingly) What's yours? [ QUOTE ] It's just like saying "ultimately nothing matters." . [/ QUOTE ] No, it's not. Once we accept that the concept of free will is false, we can move foward towards a more rational society where each individual is seen as a rational agent rather than a being driven by a mystical power we know nothing about (nor do we want to know anything about, it seems). [ QUOTE ] So, in some sense "free will" clearly does exist too. It all depends on what exactly one means by it. [/ QUOTE ] The same can be said for any concept, fictional or not. I don't think it's useful or meaninful to say that.
|
|
#34
10-25-2007, 08:53 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
More to the point, if the notion of "free will" is not rooted in human experience, then how exactly is it meaningful? [/ QUOTE ] Everything we know or imagine is rooted in human experience. What's your point?
|
|
#35
10-25-2007, 09:00 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
Depends on how you define "free will" and its opposite.
|
|
#36
10-25-2007, 11:26 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
You're just maneuvering around the argument, trying to avoid it and the conclusions one can draw from it. [/ QUOTE ] ??? You are the only one that thinks this is some sort of "argument." I made a very basic observation, that I see two viable perspectives, and that the whole thing hinges on how exactly one defines free will. I'm not "arguing" with anyone since my position is basically that both perspectives have some merit and the whole conversation is muddy. I've already made my points clear (and am only half interested in this topic anyways). You can think what you want. You should really think this stuff through a little though before you go posting things that do not make very much sense. Rather than just sling words together to try to sound smart, you should actually think about what the other person's position is, and respond rationally. Sorry, but I really can't make much sense out of your definition or the rest of your reply, so I don't know how to respond. You should just lay your thoughts rather than try to respond to me sentence by sentence. I'm not sure why you think someone acting based on his rational assessment of cause and effect is mystic. If anything, I'd say the opposite is true. I think you're conflating free will to be something different than what the rest of us are talking about. Ultimately it's a very semantical issue, and it makes no sense to think it could be so black and white without a clear definition that everyone has already agreed to.
|
|
#37
10-25-2007, 11:30 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] More to the point, if the notion of "free will" is not rooted in human experience, then how exactly is it meaningful? [/ QUOTE ] Everything we know or imagine is rooted in human experience. What's your point? [/ QUOTE ] His point is, like I said in an earlier post, MAYBE THE UNIVERSE IS JUST AN ATOM IN THE BIG TOE OF A GIANT! But since there's no way to know that since we are humans and not omniscient, you might as well accept our human bias that tells us this world we experience is all that matters. If you're determined to look at whether we have a truly objective free will, then I would say obviously we don't. But if you're looking at whether or not the actions we choose have real and meaningful consequences to us, then obviously they do. So why should "free will" not be defined as something that is relevant to our perspective?
|
|
#38
10-25-2007, 01:43 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Blame and accomplishment are pretty senseless, regardless of your view on free will... [/ QUOTE ] Please expand? [/ QUOTE ] The idea that some people "deserve" this and other people "deserve" that has no logical basis. It never has, and it never will. It probably makes sense to us because reciprocity was (and perhaps still is) useful to us, but the idea of blame is still nonsensical.
|
|
#39
10-25-2007, 03:20 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Blame and accomplishment are pretty senseless, regardless of your view on free will... [/ QUOTE ] Please expand? [/ QUOTE ] The idea that some people "deserve" this and other people "deserve" that has no logical basis. It never has, and it never will. It probably makes sense to us because reciprocity was (and perhaps still is) useful to us, but the idea of blame is still nonsensical. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think it is if you believe in free will. It may still be, but I want to hear your thoughts on that.
|
|
#40
10-25-2007, 03:36 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
My definition of "free will" is: Will that is not caused by any portion reality. (in other words, Will that isn't a part of reality, [/ QUOTE ] It sure is easy when you beg the question.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
