25NL QQ in 4bet pot

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I still believe that if you are going to 3-bet, there is no need to 3-bet as large.

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yeah, i'd probably make it 3 but not a big difference.
I think he was really scared of low PP coming along here and stacking him for 100BB+, and wanted to define villain's hand

I guess overall it comes down to not being super excited about playing deep, and if you are at all worried about that making the hand clearcut is a good way to move on to the next one

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I was thinking more like raising to 2.

You shouldn't get stacked(very often at all) if you call and don't flop a set. Not if you are playing with you are playing with your head on straight. If you call and one or two more players call you shouldn't be committed.

[RapidEvolution]

Maybe this is a grim outlook, but here goes...and who knows, I may end up making an argument against what I did!

I

Assuming I call preflop and get no limpers behind, my plan is to get all my chips in on a low flop, which is good assuming

a) villain doesn't have a higher pair
b) villain didn't hit a set
c) villain has a higher pair, but will fold it. (lol@this)
d) villain has AK and thinks it's good

Can I say that JJ is definitely willing to stack off here while KK/AA isn't? That seems pretty bad. I think this scenario carries massive reverse implied odds unless villain stacks off with JJ.

II

Assuming I call and there are limpers, An Ace or King on the flop kills me, given that I've priced in Ax and Kx preflop by not reraising. If UTG bets and I reraise AND limpers fold, we're in the same situation as if I had 3bet preflop, except I've paid more money and still haven't narrowed villains range.

Of course, I could auto-fold to the cbet on a King or Ace-high flop, but that sucks since (assuming it's a PSB) I'm getting 2-1 to call when I'm only 11:9 dog against 88+, AQ+ (assuming an ace or king and 2 low cards). Still, a fold seems right here given that there are other people in the pot who most likely won't fold a hand better than mine.
If I just fold, I've saved the cost of reraising preflop (which is good), but that seems to be a crappy way to handle QQ.

If the flop is low and villain cbets, my call/raise is only getting called by better hands (sets and random 2pairs) and if they all fold, I'm back to being heads up against the raiser, except now, the pot has a bit of dead money. Ranges are open and I have position. The problem again is that unless the board is all cards lower than 8, things look bad. In other words, if I coldcall and no one else sticks in, any card 8+ is bad in some form or another (Aces and K's move AK/AQ into hands that beat me and anything 8-J shifts the ratio of pairs that I beatairs that I don't beat away from my favor)

Reraising preflop

Pros

a) gives me a chance to take the pot down preflop.

b) gives ME the initiative if villain calls the 3bet.

c) Tells me almost exactly what villain has if he 4bets me and let's me decide if setmining is profitable.

d) narrows the field and pushes out A-x, K-x, small-medium PP hands that could have me beaten postflop.

Cons

a) Lets villain narrow my range down which is good for him since he's the one OOP

b) Allows him to 4bet shove me out of the pot preflop.

c) Minimizes the dead money from other players.

d) Creates a large pot which I (or villain) might not be able to get away from.

Coldcalling Preflop:

Pros:

a) Less money invested, so it's cheaper to get out if an Ace or King flops.

b1) Puts villain in crappy position which may increase likelihood of him folding (but probably not folding something that beats me).

b2) Because of this crappy situation for villain, it's almost impossible for him to put me on QQ and therefore I'm getting his stack if he has 99,TT,JJ (assuming none of these were on the flop)

c) Brings some dead money and poor players into the pot.

d) Makes for massive payday if I hit set against multiple players (I hope)

Cons:

a) A or K on the flop shuts me out (AJ/KJ WILL call me down here)

b) I price in PP's, SCs, A-x and K-x. The people who will call me down postflop with AJ/KJ aren't calling a $3.50 reraise preflop (usually lol) and have to be concerned with a lot more possibilities if I get action postflop.

c) I'm in a WA/WB scenario post-flop, and I honestly have a great deal of trouble in these spots.


I know I rambled on for a long time but it helps me to talk everything through. Also, there are probably large flaws (that I don't see) in this logic that are leading to leaks in my game. Feel free to PM me or comment in the thread about this line of thinking. Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[threads13]

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Assuming I call preflop and get no limpers behind, my plan is to get all my chips in on a low flop, which is good assuming

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If that is your plan that is your problem! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You shouldn't be committed. You can put a lot of money in, but I don't think you want it all in.

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Assuming I call and there are limpers, An Ace or King on the flop kills me, given that I've priced in Ax and Kx preflop by not reraising. If UTG bets and I reraise AND limpers fold, we're in the same situation as if I had 3bet preflop, except I've paid more money and still haven't narrowed villains range.

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Why would you smooth call preflop and then raise this flop?

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If the flop is low and villain cbets, my call/raise is only getting called by better hands (sets and random 2pairs) and if they all fold, I'm back to being heads up against the raiser, except now, the pot has a bit of dead money. Ranges are open and I have position. The problem again is that unless the board is all cards lower than 8, things look bad. In other words, if I coldcall and no one else sticks in, any card 8+ is bad in some form or another (Aces and K's move AK/AQ into hands that beat me and anything 8-J shifts the ratio of pairs that I beatairs that I don't beat away from my favor)

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You are in the same boat as if you had 3-bet preflop if you had about 50 more BB behind. Now you aren't going to get too much money in AND there is actually part of his range in that he has you beat. You are letting him actually make a mistake with JJ/TT.

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a) gives me a chance to take the pot down preflop.


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So that JJ-TT(maybe AQ/AK) fold? Congrats, you got no money out of the lesser hands... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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b) gives ME the initiative if villain calls the 3bet.


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Same thing as before. If you bet and he folds the flop, what have you really gained?

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c) Tells me almost exactly what villain has if he 4bets me and let's me decide if setmining is profitable.


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Yes, but you don't need to raise pot-sized to figure this out.

For cons you forgot that reraising a "standard" amount tends to make him play correctly.

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b1) Puts villain in crappy position which may increase likelihood of him folding (but probably not folding something that beats me).

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I don't think this is true

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b2) Because of this crappy situation for villain, it's almost impossible for him to put me on QQ and therefore I'm getting his stack if he has 99,TT,JJ (assuming none of these were on the flop)


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Egh, most of his stack... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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a) A or K on the flop shuts me out (AJ/KJ WILL call me down here)

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You shouldn't be getting aggressive here.

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c) I'm in a WA/WB scenario post-flop, and I honestly have a great deal of trouble in these spots.


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Well, that's because you are unwilling to play them! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously though, you just have to think through his range and maximize against it.

[RapidEvolution]

Re comment 1: How much do we want in then?
Re comment 2: I personally wouldn't..this was a what if. I'd call (which I hate doing here)

Re comment 3: I don't need a psb to find that out, but minraising bloats the pot and invites Ax and Kx to the party.

Re comment 4: I'm sure as hell not getting aggro with an A or K on the board against a big field, true. lol I'm saying there's no point in that because aces and kings would call me down if I did.

Re b2) Again, what kind of stack are we playing for here? Is this kind of play profitable when the raiser is LAG or in MP? Even if we're solely using villain's pfr stats to determine his range (yay PAHUD!!) I still think that minraising makes it correct for people to call behind me. I'm really trying to wrap my head around everything today and of course I want to improve my play (especially on the turn and river). I think I need a break. lol

Again thanks for reply, threads. I'm sure we'll talk more about this later. lol

[threads13]

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Re comment 1: How much do we want in then?
Re comment 2: I personally wouldn't..this was a what if. I'd call (which I hate doing here)


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It depends on how much they are willing to put in with a lesser hand. It is kind of a long conversion that we can have sometime if ya dig.

I know that's vague, but that is the answer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PNL helps a lot with this concept.

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Re comment 3: I don't need a psb to find that out, but minraising bloats the pot and invites Ax and Kx to the party.


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Well, minraising bloats the pot less than raising more does... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If those hands get in when you minraise to 2(8BB) then what is the problem? They are making a huge mistake. It is the best of both worlds. You get find out the information you want for cheap and if players come along with less than AQ then you are loving life. Actually, if you get a 3-way pot for 7BB a piece, then you should be ok to commit if you flop an overpair. If you don't like that raise it an extra big bet. My point is that you shouldn't raise an in between amount here. Raising the pot (to 13BB) just puts in more money in a situation where the only reasons you are 3-betting are to get the pot shorthanded and to get information. Since value isn't a factor raise the minimum amount that will give you what you need so that you don't cost yourself so much when you have to fold. It is up to you to figure out that amount as it is game specific. From my experience at these limits I certainly believe it is less than pot-sized.

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Re comment 4: I'm sure as hell not getting aggro with an A or K on the board against a big field, true. lol I'm saying there's no point in that because aces and kings would call me down if I did.


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Glad we agree!

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Re b2) Again, what kind of stack are we playing for here? Is this kind of play profitable when the raiser is LAG or in MP? Even if we're solely using villain's pfr stats to determine his range (yay PAHUD!!) I still think that minraising makes it correct for people to call behind me. I'm really trying to wrap my head around everything today and of course I want to improve my play (especially on the turn and river). I think I need a break. lol

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It is very opponent specific. Although if you have a read that he will go crazy if you give him the chance then sure it is profitable as long as you don't expect anyone to interfere with your plans. Minraising absolutely doesn't make it correct for people to call with weak hands. They will be putting in nearly 10% of their stack. They shouldn't do that without a strong hand. Also, they should be worrying about the initial raiser 4-betting, so they are getting major reverse implied odds.

The only hands they should play that point are KK+.

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Again thanks for reply, threads. I'm sure we'll talk more about this later. lol

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My pleasure. Shoot me a PM anytime.