DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO BLUFF CATCH!?!?!?!?

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with it is i honestly dont think he shows up with many combos of hands that are value raising on the river here. as i said i think he is decent and thus i cant really see him value raising here very often. (again i dont think he shows up on the river here with many hands that r capable of valuerasing on the river based on his preflop, flop and turn lines.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this? Why does he need to value-raise us?

[BPMaR]

reading some more post and looking at the hand again, I think you cant win by calling,
IMHO i think a player like that would use that line preflp, flop, turn and river deep stacked vs you with , 88-44,AJs,QJs,8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
you have pokerstove 41% equity vs 58% vs that range

But I still think hes ahead even more, so calling sucks IMO
That said I think a river raise will work

[thac]

I really hope you called here, this hand is making me wet.

[kaz2107]

ok imma try to go thru my thought process during the hand that led me to make a call that that i prolly have never made in my life before other then just because i was tilted or w/e.

So preflop i raise from co and villian knows i raise wide. but at the same time he is oop for the rest of the hand and knows that i am compitant post flop. therefore he isnt going crazy here preflop. his range is not going to be much wider then a normal person playin these preflop numbers would. he understands position and all that crap. so i think his preflop range is like 34s+ 22-99 (he 3 bets TT+ i think) and then some random hands like KQ, AJ, and a few other boradway cards (but imo not very many. so i dont think he calls very often with QJo or JTo or at least i know i dont and im much looser preflop then him so im reasonably sure i can elimate that from his range for the most part.) i also expect him to 3 bet with AQ+ so those are pretty much out too.

so now on the flop it is pretty coordinated but only J high. villian knows i cbet when checked to here a ton and thus his cr raise is rather wide imo. so on the flop i think the bulk of his range is flush and straight draws, some random pps that r just turning their hand into a bluff basically, and the like AJ MAYBE KJ but im not sure i like a cr with KJ their and so im not sure how often he has KJ after makin this play. so imo his range is still rather big here given that he is solid and knows my range up to this point is pretty big.

now that i call his reasonably big cr from villian i have defined my hand a bit and now have straight draw, flush draw, or QJ+ and over pairs. i would never call a cr here with a set or 2 pair as the board is so gross and lots of turn r bad for me.

so i think i have defined my hand as a solid hand with my call here. now here is where i think i can start to eliminate a good chuck of his range. he checks the 3rd flush card to me. now while i am aggro and pretty wild i am not a spewtard per say and will not b betting this turn all that often while this deep because i dont want to get c/r off the best hand by one of the many draws he can have.

so now the last thing he wants to have happen with 8h7h or a set here is have it check through and another heart hit. the pot is 100bbs deep already thus taking the pot down on the turn for villian is not a bad thing especially since he is oop for the river. so i took out almost all set and flushs on the turn except the nut flush (like if he had KQhh or sumtin like that) and then a few hands that i think he miss played.

so now reevaluating his range that we had from preflop and flop action there r a small amount of hands that he has a set or flush but i think the number of combos of those r few and far between by now. so i think the bulk of his range is straight draws and a ton of one pair hands that includes KJ, and then 22, 33, 44, 77, 88, 99, TT, 76s, 45s and then like a couple random 2 pair hands such as 56 and AJ.

now 76s and 45s are not of hearts obv and im pretty sure he doesnt show up on the flop with 76o or 45o or n offsuit connectors all that often. so im not to concnerned about those at all.

now the river brings a 4 flush on the board. i MAJORLY underepped my hand and basically given him a green light to bluff/overvalue his hand on n e river. if the river was a blank he would overvalue a ton of hands and since the river is a 4 flush he can bluff n e 2 that he showed up on the river with.

now for the bulk of the hand. villian is decent and a solid thinking player. knows that i am as well. so my question is wut hands do i have by the river that he feels inclined to turn into a bluff that beat me. corsakah mentioned 44hx but why would he decide to bluff that hand??? wut hand could i have on the river that beats him???? im not calling his cr with 88hx obv and J9hx is really stretchin it and i kno i would have folded the flop (cuz i considered folding tptk tobh lol.) im calling a 25 dollar bet gettin almost 3 to 1 with QJhx and obv raising with KJhx. so wut other hand combo can i have that he feels like he needs to turn his hand which has good showdown value against my range into a 100% bluff??? that would just seem really bad imo and i dont think he is that bad to do this. so now i move his range to pretty much Kxhx (coulda turned the nuts or had Kx that was a pair or sumtin and river the nuts) or a complete bluff. as i hope he isnt value betting Qxhx here as i said before i really cant show up with the 9h here and even if i did im prolly not calling a river bet with it.

so i think his range is Kxhx and 1 pair hands turned into bluffs or complete air. this explains why i dont really like a river raise vs a call and so forth. hope this makes some sense. if not ask me some questions and i will elaborate or pay pokey to convey my thoughts in a more clear manor or sumtin [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

also im sure like everyone is gonna say "u r giving villian too much credit here" and that is very possible but as i said i think he is a thinking player and is at least sorta close to this thinking. might b slightly under it but at least in this ball park imo. which is why i think this hand was awsome and and complicated and one that at least gave me the chance to think it thru and make a judgement descion.

[thac]

what the [censored] did he have? PM me if you don't wanna say yet.

[traz]

Given the action, I'm ok with betting the turn. I think you have the best hand a large percentage of the time here. A better made hand HATES checking the turn, because having it checked around really sucks.

That said, I'm ok with raising the river if you're feeling frisky. Most of his range simply has to fold if he's a thinking player. Alot of that same range may have you beat due to a stray heart. Sometimes players will bet just so they don't have to make a tough decision, which will happen when they check.

I think calling the river is the worst option

[LegendLength]

[ QUOTE ]
k imma try to address the turn and the infamous river raise here.

first the turn. i feel like i am ahead of villians range here but obv not ahead of his calling/shoving range.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are ahead of a heart draw, or a pair + heart draw. You really need to bet/fold that turn.

[Pokey]

I think K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K is safely in villain's range, as is AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Think it through:

Villain knows hero is super-aggro. Villain knows that hero tries to steal often. Villain knows hero fires c-bets and second barrels. Villain decides to slowplay preflop to get extra value.

On the flop, villain check-raises, either with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K overpair for value and to protect against the flush draw or with AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to try to resteal. Hero calls.

On the turn, villain slows down. Why? With KK he slows down because he's got a draw to the nuts and doesn't want to stack off against AK -- he's trying to get hero to price him into a draw. If he's got AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] he's looking to check-raise, figuring that he's either got a freeroll or he's way ahead, and figuring that he'll look scared enough to induce another bet.

On the river, villain has the nuts and is value-betting light, hoping to either get called by your lone ace or get raised big, either by a bluff or a second-best hand that thinks it's value-betting.

He's good.
He knows you're good.
He knows you're aggro.
He's out of position.
He's still coming along for the ride.

You've got to give him credit for something, here, and that could easily be the nuts. It's a rare villain who bluffs this river fully 1/3rd of the time; after all, your line so far could EASILY be a hand that includes a high heart, checking behind on the turn to get a draw to your flush. The only way villain can feel confident that you don't have the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is if HE has it....

You're not at the table to fight with the good players, especially with mediocre hands. Fold, escape with your stack, and fight against the crappy players instead. Chase the EASY money, folks, not the hard money.

NOTE WELL: against TAGs, I'm a coward at the tables. I see no reason to fight them without the goods. It's my opinion that smart and weak-tight beats TAG in the rock-paper-scissors of our poker world. Let them have their small pots, and when you've got a monster, let them bluff off their stacks -- this actually happens often enough to be a +EV strategy against most TAGs when you've got position.

[derosnec]

fold flop.

tighty is c/ring in 3 way pot. you have a RIO hand deepstacked. he's probably playing 95 other tables and doesn't care about you, your pfr %, your c-bet %, or what cards you hold.

you have $7 invested and you are likely going to face another (and bigger bet) on a later street and often going to have to bluff, fold, or make crying calls later in the hand.

not being results oriented. just the way it is. it's ok to be aggressive. but it's even more okay to be weak tight against nits who c/r multiway when you are likely not going to improve (or even if you do improve you're not going to be able to extract value). think multi-street.

[BPMaR]

I agree w your thought process all the way to the turn kazz, I think hed 3bet AQ+, 99+, vs you
K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] x at showdown is so unlikely i think, also QJ w Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] very unlikely IMO, cuz would he play that from sb deep OOP against a good player, not with his stats.
If u called and he had a pp w no heart or set its like WTF unless he has JTs
Thats why I think raising or folding is better than calling.
he doesnt have the nuts, but prob has u beat except for JTs or AJs.