Ever +EV to fold KK in a cash game?

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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you are ahead in the long run if you call everytime

you +ev against most all of your villains raising hands

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How can you say that with no information regarding the villain or situation?

In general, sure. But hands, situations, and villains are "in particular."

And the range of hands that gets re-raised by deep stacked tight villains in NL is very, very slim. This alone does certainly not make KK a fold, but the idea that you can merrily call a tight, deep stacked villain who has come over the top of a raise isn't the best. Thinking about this villain, this situation , and this hand, would be better.

[pzhon]

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Hero????????

Calls! Because statistically the odds of him having AA are so slim to where this is a positive EV play every time. You will get shown AA far less than AK, KK, QQ or even JJ, AQ.

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While it is possible to argue reasonably for calling with KK, you can't rely on a fallacy to do it. Earlier in this thread, I said, "Another common misconception is that the small probability someone has AA before you see the action tells you much about the probability you are up against AA in the rare scenario that someone represents a huge amount of strength." Your argument is based on that mistake, ignoring the information we get from the action, which allows us to reassess the probabilities.

In a deep game, the UTG player limp-reraised and then pushed over a 4-bet for more than the size of the pot. This is not an uncommon line to take with AA. This is an extremely uncommon line to take with AQ or even QQ. Fold KK, and be happy you got off so easily.

[pzhon]

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you are ahead in the long run if you call everytime


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As I stated earlier in this thread, "that you may come out ahead by calling all pushes with KK, does not mean you can't do even better." When you see an overbet push where your best guess is that you are up against AA 75% of the time, the other hands where your assessment was 10-40% are not an excuse to call.

[Gonso]

When you play micro-limits, you're probably very +EV making this call virtually every time, and will just get yourself in trouble folding them. At higher limits though, and with deep stacks, there are a lot of dynamics that change.

There will be situations where it would be wiser releasing kings to a 4-bet shove by certain players, especially when stacks are deep.

And yes, there ARE players (some very good ones) who will occasionally make 4-bet shoves with AA when stacks are very deep. Part of their profitability comes from the people who feel that you should automatically call with KK preflop every time.

[pzhon]

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When you play micro-limits, you're probably very +EV making this call virtually every time, and will just get yourself in trouble folding them. At higher limits though, and with deep stacks, there are a lot of dynamics that change.

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I think there is a significant difference between a deep game with a $0.30 big blind and the usual NL $25 games. Typical microstakes players don't buy in deep and limp-reraise. I think folding KK here is pretty clear.

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There will be situations where it would be wiser releasing kings to a 4-bet shove by certain players, especially when stacks are deep.

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I agree... and this was a 5-bet shove.

[garcia1000]

Hey guys, I folded KK once. AND I FOLDED IT IN A LOOSE AGGRESSIVE HOME GAME

Ok now that I have your attention. Blinds $1/$2, effective stacks of $200, so it's not even super deep. Why did I fold? The betting action and a tell.

<u>Tell</u>
It's a 9-handed game and I'm on the button with KK. Out of the corner of my eye, I see SB has a tell indicating that he has a strong hand. It's folded to me, so I just limp. I expect SB to raise, maybe BB will call, and then I can re-raise.

<u>The betting action</u>
SB raises to $10, BB raises to $30. My stack is $200, SB stack is $300, and BB covers.

<u>Another tell</u>
Now I have another tell on the SB, because when BB re-raised, he was not fazed at all. On the contrary, he was delighted and ebullient.

<u>More betting action</u>
I decide to flat call the $30. SB raises it to $75, and BB makes it $150 to go.

I folded.

What do you think guyz?!

[Gonso]

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I agree... and this was a 5-bet shove.

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I wasn't referring to any of the examples above, I meant in general.

[Gonso]

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What do you think guyz?!

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First I hate the open limp on the button with any hand, esp in a LAG game.

Second, I think you could easily find the SB with AK or QQ here, esp in a loose game, and the BB probably has a decent hand too. Those holdings would be consistent with reading someone for a strong hand.

You're going to have to put at least one of these two guys pretty squarely on AA, because if their ranges are even a little wider you're going to have enough equity to get in there. I'm sure one of these guys flipped over AA which is why you're telling this story, but I don't see why they'd have to have aces here based on the information you gave.

[Diana Ross Fan]

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I just said in my last post, the situation's are very rare.

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Earlier you even went through the trouble of putting "never fold kings preflop" in bold. Now you admit that it can be right. It seems like your statements are not reliable. Maybe you should think it through before insulting anyone who disagrees with whatever you believe at the moment, and maybe you should apologize when you realize that you have insulted someone for being correct and informative.

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Well im sorry that you play with people so retarded that they push 5,000$ into a 60$ pot. Clearly im not playing KK in this situation.

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I wouldn't fold it. If someone makes a bet this retarded then there is no reason to give them credit for aces. I think both times that I have seen someone open with a shvoe at a 1/2 table, they have AK.

[Unknown Soldier]

no, folding is never +EV. you mean correct? yes of course. If you think the guys range is KK+ then fold.

/thread