anarcho socialism question

[zasterguava]

To summarise some AS positions here is a quote from a AS FAQ:

[ QUOTE ]
In place of capitalism we want a free socialistic economic system in which the workers and peasants directly control the land and factories, and use these resources to produce for the benefit of all. In place of the State, we want to manage our own affairs through grassroots workplace and community councils, united at the local, regional, national and international levels. We call this system "anarchism" or "stateless socialism" or "libertarian socialism".

[/ QUOTE ]

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
This is completely wrong. The are numerous forms of anarchism that propopse some sort of democracy. Usually 'direct democracy' and on a regional basis such as libertarian municipalism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm starting to pick up on this from Kaj's posts. I am having a hard time understanding what purpose this "voting" process has when there is no assertion made that the outcome of the vote is at all binding. For example, some comparisons proposed by Kaj include:

- it's like voting with your friends on where to eat
- it's like voting done by a corporate board

But I don't think it's like that at all. When you declare common goods to belong to everyone and vote on how those public goods will be used, thinking that this won't rapidly become a full blow democracy seems crazy. Eventually someone will demand that the distinction between common goods and non-common goods be written down, and that a formal process for casting and counting votes be laid out, and that rules are constructed limiting the power of the elected officials over the population, and on an on and welcome to social democracy. The concept of social collectivism requires centralization at some level. We can't all be in it together without, well, acting together.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
To summarise some AS positions here is a quote from a AS FAQ:

[ QUOTE ]
In place of capitalism we want a free socialistic economic system in which the workers and peasants directly control the land and factories, and use these resources to produce for the benefit of all. In place of the State, we want to manage our own affairs through grassroots workplace and community councils, united at the local, regional, national and international levels. We call this system "anarchism" or "stateless socialism" or "libertarian socialism".

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Zaster, maybe you can help Kaj answer my question about how factories will be built in the first place. Who will be building them? How will those working in them be paid while they are waiting for their product to be sold?

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To summarise some AS positions here is a quote from a AS FAQ:

[ QUOTE ]
In place of capitalism we want a free socialistic economic system in which the workers and peasants directly control the land and factories, and use these resources to produce for the benefit of all. In place of the State, we want to manage our own affairs through grassroots workplace and community councils, united at the local, regional, national and international levels. We call this system "anarchism" or "stateless socialism" or "libertarian socialism".

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Zaster, maybe you can help Kaj answer my question about how factories will be built in the first place. Who will be building them? How will those working in them be paid while they are waiting for their product to be sold?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Factories already exist.

2) What do you think would be stopping people from building things using communal funds? As an extreme example, there were no capitalists in Russia. They managed to build a lot of stuff. The people can pool their resources to build a lot of stuff. It doesn't take a single capitalist.

And AS societies don't have to build everything for themselves anymore than my town has to build everything indigenously. There's nothing stopping AS community X to specialize in baskets and trade them with other AS societies to get the products it desires. In fact, this would likely be a norm.

[JackWhite]

[ QUOTE ]
2) What do you think would be stopping people from building things using communal funds? As an extreme example, there were no capitalists in Russia. They managed to build a lot of stuff.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure worked out great for everyone involved there

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Factories already exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
So no more would be built?

[ QUOTE ]
2) What do you think would be stopping people from building things using communal funds? As an extreme example, there were no capitalists in Russia. They managed to build a lot of stuff. The people can pool their resources to build a lot of stuff. It doesn't take a single capitalist.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was no spontaneous communal decision to build tank factories in Soviet Russia.

It seems like "the people" would have to have an incredible amount of wealth in order for the amount of money to be available to not only pay for large factors of production like factories as well as the wages necessary until the product has sold.

[zasterguava]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Factories already exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
So no more would be built?

[ QUOTE ]
2) What do you think would be stopping people from building things using communal funds? As an extreme example, there were no capitalists in Russia. They managed to build a lot of stuff. The people can pool their resources to build a lot of stuff. It doesn't take a single capitalist.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was no spontaneous communal decision to build tank factories in Soviet Russia.

It seems like "the people" would have to have an incredible amount of wealth in order for the amount of money to be available to not only pay for large factors of production like factories as well as the wages necessary until the product has sold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Comparisons to the soviet Union are missing the point. Soviet Russia was not communism- simply another form of state capitalism.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Factories already exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
So no more would be built?

[ QUOTE ]
2) What do you think would be stopping people from building things using communal funds? As an extreme example, there were no capitalists in Russia. They managed to build a lot of stuff. The people can pool their resources to build a lot of stuff. It doesn't take a single capitalist.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was no spontaneous communal decision to build tank factories in Soviet Russia.

It seems like "the people" would have to have an incredible amount of wealth in order for the amount of money to be available to not only pay for large factors of production like factories as well as the wages necessary until the product has sold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Comparisons to the soviet Union are missing the point. Soviet Russia was not communism- simply another form of state capitalism.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kaj brought up Russia, not me.

Seriously, zaster, how do you think thousands and thousands of people will spontaneously decide to build a car factory? Where will the money come from? Who will be paying the workers while they're waiting for their product to be sold?

[zasterguava]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Factories already exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
So no more would be built?

[ QUOTE ]
2) What do you think would be stopping people from building things using communal funds? As an extreme example, there were no capitalists in Russia. They managed to build a lot of stuff. The people can pool their resources to build a lot of stuff. It doesn't take a single capitalist.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was no spontaneous communal decision to build tank factories in Soviet Russia.

It seems like "the people" would have to have an incredible amount of wealth in order for the amount of money to be available to not only pay for large factors of production like factories as well as the wages necessary until the product has sold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Comparisons to the soviet Union are missing the point. Soviet Russia was not communism- simply another form of state capitalism.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kaj brought up Russia, not me.

Seriously, zaster, how do you think thousands and thousands of people will spontaneously decide to build a car factory? Where will the money come from? Who will be paying the workers while they're waiting for their product to be sold?

[/ QUOTE ]


Who will be paying the workers? No'body'

[ QUOTE ]
he [Proudhon ] recognised the ownership of the instruments of production by all, made effective by industrial groups bound to one another by free contract, so long as this right was not made to serve the exploitation of others and as long as the full product of his individual labour was assured to every human being. This organisation based on reciprocity (mutualité) guarantees the enjoyment of equal rights by each in exchange for equal services. The average working time required for the completion of any product becomes the measure of its value and is the basis of mutual exchange. In this way capital is deprived of its usurial power and is completely bound up with the performance of work. By being made available to all it ceases to be an instrument for exploitation.


[/ QUOTE ]

[BCPVP]

Why should I listen to someone espousing the long-debunked labor theory of value?

[ QUOTE ]
Who will be paying the workers? No'body'

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll rephrase: how will the workers be paid while they're waiting for their product to be sold?