Here comes Amnesty Part II

[T50_Omaha8]

[ QUOTE ]
How did my first post in this thread make the discussion esoteric?

[/ QUOTE ] Because before your post the thread was something that required no familiarity or background with this forum to follow, but after your post it apparently did.

I have actually followed and posted on this forum for months, and I have read its numerous immigration threads and understand the main points of debate. And what I don't understand is how global elitism has anything to do with this particular, rather small change in our immigration policy, nor why the allocation of higher labor productivity and historical capital investment should depend on the political boundaries in which a human is born.

As to the rest, I apologize.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How did my first post in this thread make the discussion esoteric?

[/ QUOTE ] Because before your post the thread was something that required no familiarity or background with this forum to follow, but after your post it apparently did.

I have actually followed and posted on this forum for months, and I have read its numerous immigration threads and understand the main points of debate. And what I don't understand is how global elitism has anything to do with this particular, rather small change in our immigration policy, nor why the allocation of higher labor productivity and historical capital investment should depend on the political boundaries in which a human is born.

As to the rest, I apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I see what you're asking (I think) and I'll have to give it some thought and return to this post. Right now I'm going out so I'll try to respond thoughtfully in the next couple of days. Apology accepted and appreciated and no hard feelings. Thanks.

[Misfire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7qKD-Ph7ds

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JK can address the substance of your question quite well. What I object to is the frequent claim that being born in America is a matter of "chance", and that somehow reduces his entitlement to the benefits of being born here vs someone born elsewhere.

It is not a matter of chance. When a couple decides to give birth to a child that will be entitled to citizenship (lets call that an "American couple" for simplicity), a unique individual is born. Their "American" sperm and "American egg" are not joined by "chance", and the characteristics of the resulting American child could be predicted exactly in advance with enough information about the respective DNAs. Further, their child doesnt miraculous appear in Denmark upon birth by chance.

Likewise when Foreigner Couple has a child the birth doesnt miraculously occur in the US "by chance".

The notion that a birth is by chance harkens to some notion that god places a particular child with an American couple based on some great lottery in the sky. "Fetus A, you have red ball number 23, and youre going to America!" "Fetus B, you got 5 numbers right, but missed the red ball, youre going to England, bring your umbrella".

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes absolutely no sense and is definitely not what anyone means when they say that you are an American by chance. They mean through no fault of your own. What you are basically saying is that nothing is due to chance, which is fine, but some things are entirely, 100% beyond my control, and those may as well be due to chance. Or fate. Or whatever. It doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

If thats what they mean, they should say it. Your interpretation of "chance" still says nothing about someone being born here being more entitled to the benefits of the US than those not.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
I love this bill. The single greatest injustice being perpetrated by our immigration policy is sending people back to countries they barely remember. These people did not choose to break our laws, they were usually brought here by parents, which minimizes their culpability. Add to this the humanitarian arguments to sending them back to countries where there is likely no support network and the general benefits of a relaxed immigration policy and its a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I wish it was more college time, but the law is as good as its going to get. Most people that come here young are Americans. They dont know anything about Mexico and some have never even seen the country. I have a cousin who is in this country illegally. He grew up in a border town, which is not the case for every illegal immigrant. Even with the fact that his home town is rather close to the U.S. he only goes to Mexico once ever 2 years or so. I am pretty sure his kids dont consider themselves Mexican.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
I love this bill. The single greatest injustice being perpetrated by our immigration policy is sending people back to countries they barely remember. These people did not choose to break our laws, they were usually brought here by parents, which minimizes their culpability. Add to this the humanitarian arguments to sending them back to countries where there is likely no support network and the general benefits of a relaxed immigration policy and its a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your general sentiments regarding the children not being at fault, etc..., but apparently, this bill is highly flawed and provides unfair advantages for illegal immigrants over American citizens AND over immigrants trying to follow the law. It seems an end-run attempt at other "amnesty" type things by some Congressmen. Here are some excerpts from condensed "talking points" an email campaign by Roy Beck of Numbersusa to try to defeat the legislation:

"Talking Points to Stop the DREAM ACT AMNESTY

The DREAM Act (Amendment 2237 to the Defense Authorization bill) is a nightmare. It is a massive amnesty that extends to the millions of illegal aliens who entered the United States before the age of 16.

There is no upper age limit. Any illegal alien can walk into a U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services office and declare that he is eligible. For example, a 45 year old can claim that he illegally entered the United States 30 years ago at the age of 15. There is no requirement that the alien prove that he entered the United States at the claimed time by providing particular documents. The DREAM Act's Section 4(a) merely requires him to "demonstrate" that he is eligible-which in practice could mean simply making a sworn statement to that effect. Thus, it is an invitation for just about every illegal alien to fraudulently claim the amnesty.

The alien then has six years to adjust his status from a conditional green card holder to a non-conditional one. To do so, he need only complete two years of study at an institution of higher education, including any vocational school. If the alien has already completed two years of study, he can convert to non-conditional status immediately (and use his green card as a platform to sponsor parents and other family members). As an alternative to two years of study, he can enlist in the U.S. military for two years. This provision allows Senator Durbin to claim that the DREAM Act is somehow germane to the defense authorization bill.

An illegal alien who applies for the DREAM Act amnesty gets to count his years under "conditional" green card status toward the five years needed for citizenship. On top of that, the illegal alien could claim "retroactive benefits" and start the clock running the day that the DREAM Act is enacted. In combination, these two provisions put illegal aliens on a high-speed track to U.S. citizenship-moving from illegal alien to U.S. citizen in as little as five years. Lawfully present aliens, meanwhile, must follow a slower path to citizenship.

It would be absurdly easy for just about any illegal alien-even one who does not qualify for the amnesty-to evade the law. According to Section 4(f) of the DREAM Act, once an alien files an application-any application, no matter how ridiculous-the federal government is prohibited from deporting him. Moreover, with few exceptions, federal officers are prohibited from either using information from the application to deport the alien or sharing that information with another federal agency, under threat of up to $10,000 fine. Thus, an alien's admission that he has violated federal immigration law cannot be used against him-even if he never had any chance of qualifying for the DREAM Act amnesty in the first place.

The DREAM Act also allows illegal aliens to receive in-state tuition rates at public universities, discriminating against U.S. citizens from out of state and law-abiding foreign students.

The DREAM Act also makes the illegal aliens eligible for federal student loans and federal work-study programs-another benefit that law-abiding foreign students cannot receive-all at taxpayer expense.

A consistent theme emerges: Illegal aliens are treated much more favorably than aliens who follow the law. There is no penalty for illegal behavior."

I think there are very valid objections to the mechanics of this Act. Again, while I share your general sentiments that it is not the child's fault that he is here illegally, the DREAM Act does much more than try to remedy that situation in a controlled and targeted way.

[bkholdem]

bla bla bla politicians sitting around and jaw wagging and patting themselves on the backs and arguing and creating gridlock and getting perks up the ying yang for doing so.

This is mearly move numer 1,000,000,000 by side A. Side B does it just as frequently and in fact they are in collusion with one another. Gridlock is the biggest win for the politicians.