obvious fold on A high board, right?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Not capping preflop with KK is somewhat -EV, but not terrible.

Folding on the flop closing the action *and* getting 16:1 is terrible. Your KK is the best hand way more than 5.8% of the time.

[Xhad]

Incorrectly calling pf is definitely a bigger mistake than folding incorrectly on the flop, both EV-wise and conceptually, particularly when you take reverse implied odds into account. And if you're going to call this flop then not capping pf is just blatantly retarded as it doesn't even let you get away from your hand when the worst happens.

[Hyperrrprank]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with every response so far.


[/ QUOTE ]

This should be an indicator of something. There's some serious pokerminds weighing in here.

Take it from a guy who is probably more fond of raising for information then is kosher, this ain't the spot for it. Sure, you're "representing" a strong hand. So was everyone else in preflop. Your chance of getting 3-bet is huge. You'll get info for sure, but 98% of the time that info will be that you are, just as you should have already known, behind. In exchange for that information you ruin your already slim odds to peel.

This move is especially bad out of position. Buying a free card is a valid reason to raise (though not a good one in this hand, imho), but it's a virtually none-functional play on the SB with this much strength shown by other players.

[Dhani]

[ QUOTE ]
Incorrectly calling pf is definitely a bigger mistake than folding incorrectly on the flop, both EV-wise and conceptually, particularly when you take reverse implied odds into account. And if you're going to call this flop then not capping pf is just blatantly retarded

[/ QUOTE ]
That's baloney and I don't care if you can prove me wrong everyday of the week and 2x on Sunday.
I have KK in the SB and 2 players have raised consecutively while a 3rd, all of them having position on me, calls.I will wager that someone is going to have an ace, AND when that ace falls on the flop , whether or not I have capped with Kings, my lead bet will not deter these players from calling, as you can see from the action.
1)Yes-I should have capped preflop! not doing so was not retarded-Folding preflop would have been retarded!
2) In the end, regardless of the outcome, I made a good laydown.
3)For me to call this down under the real world circumstances would be ridiculous.
4) I am not saying that I played this perfectly, but as much as I want to win money, I also want to save money, and from a realistic perspective, I saved money (not including the flop).

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Incorrectly calling pf is definitely a bigger mistake than folding incorrectly on the flop, both EV-wise and conceptually, particularly when you take reverse implied odds into account. And if you're going to call this flop then not capping pf is just blatantly retarded

[/ QUOTE ]
That's baloney and I don't care if you can prove me wrong everyday of the week and 2x on Sunday.
I have KK in the SB and 2 players have raised consecutively while a 3rd, all of them having position on me, calls.I will wager that someone is going to have an ace, AND when that ace falls on the flop , whether or not I have capped with Kings, my lead bet will not deter these players from calling, as you can see from the action.
1)Yes-I should have capped preflop! not doing so was not retarded-Folding preflop would have been retarded!
2) In the end, regardless of the outcome, I made a good laydown.
3)For me to call this down under the real world circumstances would be ridiculous.
4) I am not saying that I played this perfectly, but as much as I want to win money, I also want to save money, and from a realistic perspective, I saved money (not including the flop).

[/ QUOTE ]

so lets say that you feel unlucky and you fold AA preflop. if you played you would have lost to some idiot's 27s rivered flush. you made a good laydown there too right?

your reasoning is the kind of flawed thinking that i see all the time in limit players who dont "get it." they think that limit poker is about

1) making people fold
2) waiting until they're sure they have the best hand and then betting.

i hope you understand why both of these ideas are (EDIT) correct in certain situaations, but fundamentally very wrong.

[Xhad]

Dhani, I think the aggressive tone of my post set you off and you misread most of it; my statements were directed at Kurn, not you. What I said was that not capping pf is the bigger mistake than folding the flop (if it's even a mistake which I'm still not entirely convinced). Do some stoving and it's obvious, the flop call is near-marginal, the pf cap is not (even if you give all 3 opponents supernit ranges of AK, AQ, TT+ you still win over 40% of the time, and you're getting 3:1 on a raise; this isn't close at all). The point about not capping being blatantly retarded was saying that the only positive of not capping KK preflop would be to save money if an A falls, if you're calling this flop you don't even get that hence the blatantly retarded comment (though you're right that folding pf is even worse).

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
I have KK in the SB and 2 players have raised consecutively while a 3rd, all of them having position on me, calls.I will wager that someone is going to have an ace, AND when that ace falls on the flop , whether or not I have capped with Kings, my lead bet will not deter these players from calling, as you can see from the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

the tremendous amount of strength you show pf by capping out of the sb defines your hand. thus, playing strongly pf allows you to more safely fold postflop since you *know* a typical player with QQ isn't raising that flop if you bet it after your preflop action.

[ QUOTE ]
2) In the end, regardless of the outcome, I made a good laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

not if you folded the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
3)For me to call this down under the real world circumstances would be ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

calling down multiway would be suicide. peeling the flop multiway is profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
4) I am not saying that I played this perfectly, but as much as I want to win money, I also want to save money, and from a realistic perspective, I saved money (not including the flop).

[/ QUOTE ]

even so, the money you saved postflop was likely less than the money you cost yourself in not capping pf(if you folded the flop i guarantee it was because your flop fold likely COST you money as well).

i wouldn't call not capping pf retarded, but if you are truly looking for optimal play to win the most/lose the least you deviated from that plan here. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

not capping because you are scared one of 3 cards in the deck(assuming one person holds an ace) are going to hit the flop is not good justification, and yet i've seen you use it at least twice. a substantial amount of every small bet that goes in pf belonged to you. it's like you offered a coupon to all of the hands drawing against your pf second nuts.

[Dhani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Incorrectly calling pf is definitely a bigger mistake than folding incorrectly on the flop, both EV-wise and conceptually, particularly when you take reverse implied odds into account. And if you're going to call this flop then not capping pf is just blatantly retarded

[/ QUOTE ]
That's baloney and I don't care if you can prove me wrong everyday of the week and 2x on Sunday.
I have KK in the SB and 2 players have raised consecutively while a 3rd, all of them having position on me, calls.I will wager that someone is going to have an ace, AND when that ace falls on the flop , whether or not I have capped with Kings, my lead bet will not deter these players from calling, as you can see from the action.
1)Yes-I should have capped preflop! not doing so was not retarded-Folding preflop would have been retarded!
2) In the end, regardless of the outcome, I made a good laydown.
3)For me to call this down under the real world circumstances would be ridiculous.
4) I am not saying that I played this perfectly, but as much as I want to win money, I also want to save money, and from a realistic perspective, I saved money (not including the flop).

[/ QUOTE ]

so lets say that you feel unlucky and you fold AA preflop. if you played you would have lost to some idiot's 27s rivered flush. you made a good laydown there too right?

your reasoning is the kind of flawed thinking that i see all the time in limit players who dont "get it." they think that limit poker is about

1) making people fold
2) waiting until they're sure they have the best hand and then betting.

i hope you understand why both of these ideas are (EDIT) correct in certain situaations, but fundamentally very wrong.



[/ QUOTE ] I am simply saying that in this SPECIFIC situation that given all of the info, I made a good laydown, NOT on the basis that I will get sucked out on, but the given what I knew combined with weak position in the SB, my fold was a good one a vast majority of the time to save money.
I am not arguing about preflop and suckouts, look, I am not getting metaphysical here. simply put, it was a good laydown given the info.

[Dhani]

My mistake, sorry. Reading while having a child is difficult for me. LOl