Call this down? San Jose 20/40

[Frond]

Call the turn.

"Lots of loose players" PF raise is a slam dunk IMO. Learned that from many in the SSHE forum.

[Milo]

I don't think the PFR is standard, nor do I find it silly.

Personally, I like it. You are representing a stronger hand than you have, but if the flop comes, say, K34r with one heart you may very much want (and get) a four-card flop with your PFR.

[bernie]

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Personally, I like it. You are representing a stronger hand than you have, but if the flop comes, say, K34r with one heart you may very much want (and get) a four-card flop with your PFR.



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This isn't necesarily why you raise this preflop in this spot.

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I don't think the PFR is standard

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It is.

b

[Xhad]

"4 bad limpers" is actually looser than most .50/1 games nowadays. I'm honestly surprised the PFR is even a debate up here.

[johnnylovescandy]

this is a midlimit thread, correct??? half these posters are boneheads...

[Xhad]

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[ QUOTE ]
...you've almost certainly got an equity advantage over the field in a game that has 4 limpers to you.

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I just pokerstoved this. Against 6 "random" hands (four limpers and the blinds in the Op's example) )the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is comes in at about 23%. When you tighten the criteria where the first two limpers are playing TT-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, QTs+ QTo+, then the equity dips to 19.7%. (Note: I'm not good with pokerstove, especially while multitabling at 3am, and was struggling with inputs. The range could/should well be wider, including the non-suited Ax hands.) Also, it isn't rare for AK-AJ to get limped in that game which hasn't been taken into account. I don't know how much "random" skews the numbers down but it appears that QJs fairs pretty well in my primitive simulation.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.728% 15.45% 01.28% 618551 51189.12 { TT-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, QTs+, QTo+ }
Hand 1: 16.747% 15.48% 01.27% 619784 50729.95 { TT-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, QTs+, QTo+ }
Hand 2: 11.710% 10.84% 00.87% 434037 34784.62 { random }
Hand 3: 11.703% 10.83% 00.87% 433630 34918.79 { random }
Hand 4: 19.672% 17.85% 01.82% 714789 72846.45 { QhJh }
Hand 5: 11.714% 10.84% 00.87% 434052 34965.04 { random }
Hand 6: 11.726% 10.86% 00.87% 434636 34839.04 { random }

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I did the same thing, only For the UTG limper I gave a much tighter range of only pocket pairs and most broadway hands (some of which might be trying for an LRR), then gave the other limpers the top 40% but then removed the absolute best hands and absolute worst hands and added in some that were better than the hands I removed (ie top 40% included K5o but not suited connectors 45s-98s which is not a true indicator of how most real players would play), then gave the blinds random hands. You fare no better than UTG's range in that case but in a pot this multiway you don't need the best hand to raise, just an above-average one. Also I looked at your first post and every one of your disadvantages to raising is included in the equity figures (and the fact that stoving doesn't tell the whole story actually works in your favor here) so I really don't see a reason not to raise unless one of the early limpers is a lot tighter than this.

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Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
Player 1: 18.319 % 17.285 % 2.299 % 80.417 % 22+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo
Player 2: 13.592 % 12.486 % 2.456 % 85.058 % 22-TT, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
Player 3: 13.573 % 12.468 % 2.454 % 85.079 % 22-TT, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
Player 4: 13.613 % 12.506 % 2.458 % 85.036 % 22-TT, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
Player 5: 11.526 % 10.757 % 1.741 % 87.503 % Random
Player 6: 11.513 % 10.738 % 1.754 % 87.509 % Random
Player 7: 17.864 % 16.443 % 3.043 % 80.514 % QhJh

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[bernie]

link

b

[GuyOnTilt]

It's really, really sad that there's discussion about raising PF.

[Xhad]

btw for the non-raisers: What DO you raise in this spot?

[KitCloudkicker]

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It's really, really sad that there's discussion about raising PF.

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