annoying river spot 25/50

[garganasaur]

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I'm sure you can find a better part of your range to fire the turn with than AJ here.

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I think you're wrong. Care to elaborate?

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well your basically turning your hand ino air, which it isn't. there really arent that many better hands that you are gonna get to fold. Plus you have outs against a T, which will certainly pay you off if you hit (well probably pay off)

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I think ur overestimating the value of ur hand and underestimating the value of a bet. Both hitting a 5 outer and villain having a ten is a pretty unlikely scenario, and our range is relatively narrow here. Just because we soert of have showdown value doesn't make this a check.. I think you should be betting here more often than checking

any other players at these stakes want to comment? im interested in opinions

also if villain is calling with a better 2 pair hand or something then hes just spewing

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dont like action jeff, definitely agree

[garganasaur]

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I'm sure you can find a better part of your range to fire the turn with than AJ here.

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I think you're wrong. Care to elaborate?

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well your basically turning your hand ino air, which it isn't. there really arent that many better hands that you are gonna get to fold. Plus you have outs against a T, which will certainly pay you off if you hit (well probably pay off)

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I think ur overestimating the value of ur hand and underestimating the value of a bet. Both hitting a 5 outer and villain having a ten is a pretty unlikely scenario, and our range is relatively narrow here. Just because we soert of have showdown value doesn't make this a check.. I think you should be betting here more often than checking

any other players at these stakes want to comment? im interested in opinions

also if villain is calling with a better 2 pair hand or something then hes just spewing

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dont like action jeff, definitely agree

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plus, what if he figures out what kinda hand you have and does something crazy like shoves the river, you cant call, and he knows you would prolly reraise AQ or any big pair preflop, you have to fold what might be the best hand, bet the turn if nothing else than you not having to second guess yourself

[king_of_drafts]

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I think ur overestimating the value of ur hand and underestimating the value of a bet. Both hitting a 5 outer and villain having a ten is a pretty unlikely scenario, and our range is relatively narrow here. Just because we soert of have showdown value doesn't make this a check.. I think you should be betting here more often than checking


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I don't think our range is narrow, I call the flop there with any two broadway. I agree that if villain calls with a better two pair on the turn it's a spew most of the time.

There are a bunch of fringe reasons to bet the turn, I guess. One of them became apparent here, when I got counterfeited on the end, and villain bet his ace on a freeroll and got me to fold. Even then, however, I think I show up with a better hand than a naked ace on that river some % of the time.

I still don't get it. We are in position with a decent amount of showdown value. It's a small pot and usually not a great board for villain to bluff once he checks the turn. I agree that >80% of the time, if we bet, he will fold the turn, but almost all of his range there is complete air with no redraws, so why are we trying so hard to get him to fold?

[etizzle]

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I think ur overestimating the value of ur hand and underestimating the value of a bet. Both hitting a 5 outer and villain having a ten is a pretty unlikely scenario, and our range is relatively narrow here. Just because we soert of have showdown value doesn't make this a check.. I think you should be betting here more often than checking


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I don't think our range is narrow, I call the flop there with any two broadway. I agree that if villain calls with a better two pair on the turn it's a spew most of the time.

There are a bunch of fringe reasons to bet the turn, I guess. One of them became apparent here, when I got counterfeited on the end, and villain bet his ace on a freeroll and got me to fold. Even then, however, I think I show up with a better hand than a naked ace on that river some % of the time.

I still don't get it. We are in position with a decent amount of showdown value. It's a small pot and usually not a great board for villain to bluff once he checks the turn. I agree that >80% of the time, if we bet, he will fold the turn, but almost all of his range there is complete air with no redraws, so why are we trying so hard to get him to fold?

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I agree, the only exact hands he will have to fold for a bet to be correct are AQ AK obv, he isn't gonna fold anything else for one bet.

Ideally we would like our turn check to mean we still could have a T, that would fix this whole problem and if this was still part of your range he wouldn't fire river like this with just the A. To be honest I think his bet is pretty bad with a naked ace, he's only bluffing at half the pot anyways.

[ActionJeff]

on "His range is mostly complete air"

if this were true I would think this usually a check. But I don't think ahhsnap raises CO and fires 3 way on this broadway board with air too often. I think his range is not that far off from ours and has a lot of broadway hands as well as some lower suited aces. And I think the river is actually a pretty good spot for him to profitably bluff for 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet (+ G bucks ship). Which is why I think our value on the river with our 2 pair is a lot lower than most people are making out, and why I would often prefer a turn bet.

-Jeff

[king_of_drafts]

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on "His range is mostly complete air"

if this were true I would think this usually a check. But I don't think ahhsnap raises CO and fires 3 way on this broadway board with air too often. I think his range is not that far off from ours and has a lot of broadway hands as well as some lower suited aces. And I think the river is actually a pretty good spot for him to profitably bluff for 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet (+ G bucks ship). Which is why I think our value on the river with our 2 pair is a lot lower than most people are making out, and why I would often prefer a turn bet.

-Jeff

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I think this is much easier to say after the board counterfeits our hand and he actually decides to bet.