live 67s Button

[Frond]

Some are for the PF raise some are against it. Joe's post was is concise and spot on. I didn't think about raising cause I usually don't with this hand. Doesn't mean I won't now though.

PokerJans was at the table with me so that is what he meant by he didn't know what the guy on my right had in the hand.

Oh no, am I starting to get to the level of what do I think my opponent has and onward to what do I think my opponent thinks that I have to..........????

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh no, am I starting to get to the level of what do I think my opponent has and onward to what do I think my opponent thinks that I have to..........????

[/ QUOTE ]

When you get to the level where you're asking yourself what your opponenent thinks you think of his shirt, it's time to take a step back.

[B_Movie_Fan]

I definitely disagree with all the people saying that a pf raise is possibly +ev. It's freaking 4/8 game, people! The primary reasons for raising (metagame, hand disguising) are pretty much nullified by the general sucktitude of all the people playing. If this were 15/30, 20/40, or even 10/20 I might agree. 4/8 players are by and large not sophisticated enough to employ hand reading in this or later hands.

I also think that raising pf for value is misguided. I don't have pokerstove, but good god, 67s is a tremendous implied odds hand. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it does in fact have a pf equity edge, it would be so miniscule that this would be a clear-cut situation of forgoing a (very) slightly +ev play now to increase postflop ev.

As for the main question, I would give serious consideration to folding the flop. A checkraise behind us would be awful, and as it stands right now our implied odds make calling or folding approximately break-even if we were closing the action. I think that folding the flop is probably correct, although I could be talked into a raise if we were extremely likely to buy a free card with it.

[PokerJans]

Just some food for thought...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2855593
pokenum -h 6c 7c - 8c 9s - qd jd - ks 3h - js 8d - ac 2s
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 6c 129022 19.61 527908 80.23 1078 0.16 0.196
9s 8c 67077 10.19 584502 88.83 6429 0.98 0.106
Qd Jd 162071 24.63 486690 73.96 9247 1.41 0.253
Ks 3h 123125 18.71 533805 81.12 1078 0.16 0.187
Js 8d 38802 5.90 604608 91.88 14598 2.22 0.070
2s Ac 123313 18.74 533617 81.10 1078 0.16 0.188

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
The primary reasons for raising (metagame, hand disguising) are pretty much nullified by the general sucktitude of all the people playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are not the primary reasons for raising, nor should they ever be. Possibly excluding HU matches.

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that raising pf for value is misguided. I don't have pokerstove, but good god, 67s is a tremendous implied odds hand. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it does in fact have a pf equity edge, it would be so miniscule that this would be a clear-cut situation of forgoing a (very) slightly +ev play now to increase postflop ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every penny counts. And in this case, bloating the pot preflop is good for your hand, because you're either going to hit a monster or get out of there...if you hit the monster, you want a bigger pot that will tempt your opponents to stay in. Either way, trying to Stove 76s against 8-9 random hands would take my PC forever, but rest assured that your equity advantage is more than miniscule.

[Frond]

Say I did raise PF in this hand after all the limpers. Play out the hand now............. It is checked to me (the PF raiser)on the flop, I take the free one obv if this happens. Cause if I bet the flop everyone would be getting getting around 14:1 or better depending on their positions. Just speculation

[Ricks]

In HEPFAP on pg 33, the authors write (paraphrasing) that raising 87s in late position is probably a good play, but if you are against opponents that play too many hands and go too far with them, there is less value in raising so you should usually just call because you do not need to tie them to the pot.

The authors also state that part of the reason for raising is to get the button but we already have that.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
In HEPFAP on pg 33, the authors write (paraphrasing) that raising 87s in late position is probably a good play, but if you are against opponents that play too many hands and go too far with them, there is less value in raising so you should usually just call because you do not need to tie them to the pot.

The authors also state that part of the reason for raising is to get the button but we already have that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont understand this. if you hit just a pair of 8's or 7's you arent going to win anyway. it doesnt matter if you raise PF or not. you want to tie people into the pot for when you hit a monster hand.

if anything, this argument better applies to a hand like AJo, for obvious reasons.

[Ricks]

He is saying that it is unnecessary to raise in order to tie people to the pot when they are probably not folding post-flop anyway.

[Hielko]

[ QUOTE ]
if anything, this argument better applies to a hand like AJo, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously not.