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#31
06-27-2007, 03:08 PM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
Hand I played a few weeks back that I'm just remembering. Sb was decently aggro and not a total moron. Definatly not a maniac but capable of getting aggro. 4 limpers sb completes I check w/92o in the bb Flop 984r Sb donks, I raise, rest fold sb call Turn 9 I bet sb c/r's how do we proceed? Does anyone just fold the flop? [/ QUOTE ] Second to act, I play the flop as you did. If you fail to eliminate those that follow you I would not put another bet in the pot unimproved. If they do fold back to the sb, as they did, I would check rather than bet the turn, hoping to induce a bluff on the river. If you bet the turn, I think you have to fold to the raise. Either way, after the flop you plan to invest only one more bet in this pot (unimproved). Decide which way would be best to do it. 
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#32
06-27-2007, 04:17 PM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
Your thought process is a little backward. I think this decision is very close between raising and folding and calling is by far the worst of the 3 options. You sometimes have to get your hands a little dirty and this is not a time to play cautiously if you are going to continue. Your list of safe turn cards is also problematic in that they arent all safe and they represent less than have the deck. The beauty of this being a limped/small pot is that you may make hands with huge equity like QT and QJ fold. In addition, popping out a turn raise will be pretty darn expensive relative to the pot size and the SB also may decide to check since he missed his draw and there is still a field of fish to lead into. [/ QUOTE ] thanks for the feedback surfdoc. i see your point. there are a lot of limping type hands, with a lot of outs, that you can possibly fold now with a raise on the flop. i like emerson's line about how to play the hand after a raise on the flop (no more bets into the pot; or if fold back to SB, then just check behind on turn and call river).
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#33
06-27-2007, 06:28 PM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Hand I played a few weeks back that I'm just remembering. Sb was decently aggro and not a total moron. Definatly not a maniac but capable of getting aggro. 4 limpers sb completes I check w/92o in the bb Flop 984r Sb donks, I raise, rest fold sb call Turn 9 I bet sb c/r's how do we proceed? Does anyone just fold the flop? [/ QUOTE ] Second to act, I play the flop as you did. If you fail to eliminate those that follow you I would not put another bet in the pot unimproved. If they do fold back to the sb, as they did, I would check rather than bet the turn, hoping to induce a bluff on the river. If you bet the turn, I think you have to fold to the raise. Either way, after the flop you plan to invest only one more bet in this pot (unimproved). Decide which way would be best to do it. [/ QUOTE ] Originally that was my plan, but the 9 on the turn made my decision a little hard. I didn't want to give a free card to a hand like QT or some other weird strait draw or pair that I'm ahead of that will certainly call down.
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#34
06-27-2007, 06:35 PM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] folding that flop seems indefensible [/ QUOTE ] we have top pair withn a rag kicker on a board that has a ton of straight draws on it and a guy who bet into a fleet of people. i still fold. [/ QUOTE ] This is a very easy flop fold. I laugh at tags who raise in this spot. [/ QUOTE ] I'd like to hear your thinking. Is your decision mainly based on the reverse implied odds you face when behind the bettor, or on the players yet to act?
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#36
06-27-2007, 09:03 PM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Hand I played a few weeks back that I'm just remembering. Sb was decently aggro and not a total moron. Definatly not a maniac but capable of getting aggro. 4 limpers sb completes I check w/92o in the bb Flop 984r Sb donks, I raise, rest fold sb call Turn 9 I bet sb c/r's how do we proceed? Does anyone just fold the flop? [/ QUOTE ] Second to act, I play the flop as you did. If you fail to eliminate those that follow you I would not put another bet in the pot unimproved. If they do fold back to the sb, as they did, I would check rather than bet the turn, hoping to induce a bluff on the river. If you bet the turn, I think you have to fold to the raise. Either way, after the flop you plan to invest only one more bet in this pot (unimproved). Decide which way would be best to do it. [/ QUOTE ] Originally that was my plan, but the 9 on the turn made my decision a little hard. I didn't want to give a free card to a hand like QT or some other weird strait draw or pair that I'm ahead of that will certainly call down. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I read to quickly and was looking only at the flop when I made the comment, and this would still be may plan, as it was yours, until the 9 hit on the turn. My thinking is exactly with yours here. After the check raise I reluctantly call down.
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#37
06-28-2007, 12:39 AM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] folding that flop seems indefensible [/ QUOTE ] we have top pair withn a rag kicker on a board that has a ton of straight draws on it and a guy who bet into a fleet of people. i still fold. [/ QUOTE ] This is a very easy flop fold. I laugh at tags who raise in this spot. [/ QUOTE ] I'd like to hear your thinking. Is your decision mainly based on the reverse implied odds you face when behind the bettor, or on the players yet to act? [/ QUOTE ] Its the combination of everything you just said. The only time I'm raising the flop in this spot is if I know my opponent will bet 8x or a gutshot into the field. Although I'll still have the same problem of having 4 players behind me that can have a better hand or outdraw me later, I will now be ahead of the flop bettor often enough to make raising the flop worth it in my mind.
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#39
06-28-2007, 03:38 AM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
[ QUOTE ]
Its the combination of everything you just said. The only time I'm raising the flop in this spot is if I know my opponent will bet 8x or a gutshot into the field. Although I'll still have the same problem of having 4 players behind me that can have a better hand or outdraw me later, I will now be ahead of the flop bettor often enough to make raising the flop worth it in my mind. [/ QUOTE ] you don't think a villain of OP's description will bet 8x here? i was making that assumption. btw, if you are in villain's shoes, how are you playing: 1. 9 good kicker 2. 9 bad kicker 3. 8 good kicker 4. 8 bad kicker 5. oesd 6. 4x bet, cf, cc any, or cc1 (cc if it's only 1 back to you, otherwise fold) thanks.
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#40
06-28-2007, 04:12 AM
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Re: More fun from 15/30
That kind of board is prime limping range for the type of tools who open limp. The times that everyone is going to miss are few and far between.
MOst of the hands that have missed are hands that would raise preflop. And then there's that guy who bet into a field of 5 other people knowing this. For the very rare occasion that he bets, it's folded around and he tables A8 triumphantly, i wouldnt lose any sleep.
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