What's so bad about amnesty?

[mosdef]

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All of these countries have great candidates capable of contributing significantly to society, who are queuing up while human trash jumps the fence.

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The basic problem with your argument is that Americans clearly do consider the contribution of Mexican immigrants to be significant. They are coming to the U.S. because they get work there. When Americans say they don't want illegal immigrants, what they mean is that they want "somebody" to do illegal immigrant jobs, just not illegal immigrants.

Joe America: Immigrants is bad! We need a wall!
Jose Rational: Fine. We'll build a giant wall and you can mow your own lawn.
Joe America: What?!?!? No way! I'm not mowing a lawn! I'm special! They told me so in school!
Jose Rational: Then I will do it for a minimal fee.
Joe America: What?!?!? No way! You're stealing my jobs!
Jose Rational: Come on, Carlos. Let's try to Canada. I'd rather learn to like hockey than go through more of this.

[bkholdem]

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You haven't provided any answer. You haven't demonstrated any legitimate authority to regulate other people's actions. All you've done is spew rhetoric.

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Rhetoric?? WTF? Learn to read pvn.

You don't understand the principle of restricting migrants to those which can contribute significantly to society, or have significant need (such as refugees)?

According to your worldview, why don't you just open the US to anyone who wants to come? I'm sure it'd be a nice place with a billion people in it.

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I think this is exactly what Bush wants to do. I also think that many people haven't considered the ultimate effects of importing not only large, but limitless, numbers of individuals possessing 19th-century skill sets into a 21st-century setting.

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And people who think they are going to be 'kept out' or deported in large numbers are operating with 17th century minds. Maybe we should round up those engulfed in fantasy and put them out.

[mosdef]

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I also think that many people haven't considered the ultimate effects of importing not only large, but limitless, numbers of individuals possessing 19th-century skill sets into a 21st-century setting.

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Like what? As one of the "advanced" ones, I want to delegate away as much of the menial labour as I can so I can spend more time either doing 21st-century work or, even better, 21st-century leisure.

[revots33]

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Taking on such human trash is not how you build a great or diverse country.


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Well I think "human trash" is a needlessly derogatory term. If I was born in a poor country with little prospects or education, then sure I might try to hop a fence if I thought it might help give my children a better life. That wouldn't make me trash. And if the work I did involved stooping over in a lettuce field all day, that wouldn't make me trash either. Anyway I'm sure the "trash" label has been applied at one time or another to just about every new immigrant group.

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There are millions of talented, useful and technically skilled people who want to migrate to the US

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Then we should let them in. Why wouldn't we? And why do we need to round up millions of unskilled laborers in order to let them in?

Anyway I think people get hung up on amnesty as some sort of "reward" for breaking the law. Eh, maybe it is, and it's certainly not a perfect solution or even necessarily the most fair. But regardless, we have to consider our options. We have 12 million undocumented workers. They live here, they work here, and their kids go to school here. We have three options. We can either kick them out, do nothing, or give them the opportunity to stay legally. I don't see option one as any more preferable than options 2 or 3. Although I'm sure the "human trash" crowd would get far more satisfaction from option 1.

[John Kilduff]

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You haven't provided any answer. You haven't demonstrated any legitimate authority to regulate other people's actions. All you've done is spew rhetoric.

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Rhetoric?? WTF? Learn to read pvn.

You don't understand the principle of restricting migrants to those which can contribute significantly to society, or have significant need (such as refugees)?

According to your worldview, why don't you just open the US to anyone who wants to come? I'm sure it'd be a nice place with a billion people in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly what Bush wants to do. I also think that many people haven't considered the ultimate effects of importing not only large, but limitless, numbers of individuals possessing 19th-century skill sets into a 21st-century setting.

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And people who think they are going to be 'kept out' or deported in large numbers are operating with 17th century minds. Maybe we should round up those engulfed in fantasy and put them out.

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That seems to encapsulate the stance in a nutshell, that resistance is futile. Maybe that should be debated rather than merely asserted and/or accepted.

Hypothetically speaking, if the population of America actually were to increase by 700 million low-skilled immigrants over several more decades, America would become unrecognizable (and I don't mean just by color of skin). I think the issue is very worthy of discussion and I don't believe a stance such as "resistance is futile" should be considered predestined or pre-ordained. I do have to go out, but I'll check this thread late tonight or tomorrow. This has the potential to become an even more interesting discussion. Thanks for your input thus far.

[bkholdem]

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You haven't provided any answer. You haven't demonstrated any legitimate authority to regulate other people's actions. All you've done is spew rhetoric.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rhetoric?? WTF? Learn to read pvn.

You don't understand the principle of restricting migrants to those which can contribute significantly to society, or have significant need (such as refugees)?

According to your worldview, why don't you just open the US to anyone who wants to come? I'm sure it'd be a nice place with a billion people in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly what Bush wants to do. I also think that many people haven't considered the ultimate effects of importing not only large, but limitless, numbers of individuals possessing 19th-century skill sets into a 21st-century setting.

[/ QUOTE ]

And people who think they are going to be 'kept out' or deported in large numbers are operating with 17th century minds. Maybe we should round up those engulfed in fantasy and put them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems to encapsulate the stance in a nutshell, that resistance is futile. Maybe that should be debated rather than merely asserted and/or accepted.

Hypothetically speaking, if the population of America actually were to increase by 700 million low-skilled immigrants over several more decades, America would become unrecognizable (and I don't mean just by color of skin). I think the issue is very worthy of discussion and I don't believe a stance such as "resistance is futile" should be considered predestined or pre-ordained. I do have to go out, but I'll check this thread late tonight or tomorrow. This has the potential to become an even more interesting discussion. Thanks for your input thus far.

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Drugs have been illegal for a number of years now. Trillions have been spend 'fighting' them. It's 2007, a few decades later, and we can not even keep them out of maximum security prisons. Resistance is futile. It is a game, 'restricting', 'regulating', 'controlling', 'managing', etc. It is a big game so that schmucks in Washington D.C. can take a slice of pie for appointing themselves the head jackass 'regulators' in charge.

[LooseCaller]

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You haven't provided any answer. You haven't demonstrated any legitimate authority to regulate other people's actions. All you've done is spew rhetoric.

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Rhetoric?? WTF? Learn to read pvn.

You don't understand the principle of restricting migrants to those which can contribute significantly to society, or have significant need (such as refugees)?

According to your worldview, why don't you just open the US to anyone who wants to come? I'm sure it'd be a nice place with a billion people in it.

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what if pvn (or i or anyone else) simply believe that a desire to better one's economic situation is legitimate need?

i think what people are forgetting here is that there's absolutely no way to actually remove the 12 million illegals (or whatever the estimated number is). it's ridiculous to think otherwise. if you oppose amnesty, what is your legitimate counter solution?

[mosdef]

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Hypothetically speaking, if the population of America actually were to increase by 700 million low-skilled immigrants over several more decades, America would become unrecognizable (and I don't mean just by color of skin).

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In several decades, America will be unrecognizable regardless. And in any event, "very different" is not necessarily "bad". Things could get a lot better.

[bkholdem]

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Um am I crazy or are you guys arguing the same point? Economic status and crime are linked. Poor people are more likely to commit crimes. Unskilled illegal immigrants are likely to remain poor for the near future, and there would therefore be a decent chance they will commit crimes. I think thats a pretty stupid reason to be against "amnesty," but I don't understand how you can argue against that fact.

I am from the DC suburbs in Prince Georges County and we have a huge problem with latino gangs, specifically MS13, we had a week a few months ago where something like 6 people were stabbed in a gang war. It seems kind of obvious that more illegal immigrants = more crime, just as more working poor = more crime. Its not saying "Oh they might be criminals because they are latino" its "they might be criminals beacuse they are poor, who have a larger chance of committing violent crimes."

Anyways, yes, saying that the hispanic crime rate is 3x the white one is a retarded fact. I'm sure that if you compared poor whites to poor latinos they would have similar crime rates, and same with middle class/upper class etc. The thing is, there isn't some massive influx of poor white people as there is latinos. Millions of new lower class people = millions of new potential criminals. "Race" has nothing to do with it.

Oh and note that personaly I am for "amnesty" or whatever PC BS term they use next. The location and conditions a person is born into should not impact what they can do with their life.

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No we are not arguing the same point. He argued that 'brown eyed people' commit more crimes than non brown eyed people. Oh, I mean brown skin people (but they are disproportionally brown eyed as well so it's basically the same argument). I pointed out that there are more poor brown eyed people and if we compared poor brown eyed people to poor non brown eyed people that their crime stats would be similar.

Come to think of it I bet that people under 6' tall commit more crimes than people over 6' tall. But I would proably be a jackass if I pointed that out. lol

[bkholdem]

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You haven't provided any answer. You haven't demonstrated any legitimate authority to regulate other people's actions. All you've done is spew rhetoric.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rhetoric?? WTF? Learn to read pvn.

You don't understand the principle of restricting migrants to those which can contribute significantly to society, or have significant need (such as refugees)?

According to your worldview, why don't you just open the US to anyone who wants to come? I'm sure it'd be a nice place with a billion people in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if pvn (or i or anyone else) simply believe that a desire to better one's economic situation is legitimate need?

i think what people are forgetting here is that there's absolutely no way to actually remove the 12 million illegals (or whatever the estimated number is). it's ridiculous to think otherwise. if you oppose amnesty, what is your legitimate counter solution?

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To huff and puff and blow a gasket because someone is breaking the precious rules?