Bankroll for Shortstack Play

[wazz]

Everyone railing against the shorstackers clearly have no idea what adjustments they need to make to beat them. And I say beat, because there's not a single shortstacker at any level of any site that is up against me. They're not difficult to play. They DON'T reduce the complexity of the game, in fact they bring a lot more complexity to the game when you're up against one shorty on your left and one deep-stacked target on your right.

Let's recap: there's nothing ethically wrong with shortstacking; it can be very profitable; it's not especially difficult to counter their strategies. I say again: THERE'S NOTHING ETHICALLY WRONG WITH SHORTSTACKING.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's recap: there's nothing ethically wrong with shortstacking; it can be very profitable; it's not especially difficult to counter their strategies. I say again: THERE'S NOTHING ETHICALLY WRONG WITH SHORTSTACKING.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is ethically wrong. But it makes the game not fun.

You are playing 6 max PLO, do you want to play vs 5 players at 200-300 bb? or 5 players at 20-30 bb?

Case closed.

Next thread.

[wazz]

I really couldn't care less if I have to take their money 25BB at a time. I still take their money, and they still have to reload to stay in. I actually understand how to play at different stack sizes, you see.

[sc000t]

God damn look what I started. I usually stay away from making smartass comments (this might of been my first actually) as I generally like to help the community whenever possible (or at least try). My main problem with shorstackers is not the fact that I can't adapt to play them and I'm very suprised that the majority of this thread thinks thats why most regular full buyin players hate shorstackers.

For starters, I usually like to play HU or shorthanded, and its nice when I can get someone that will play me with a full stack as well (this never use to be a problem a year ago). And when we have a game going and we get to 200bbs or something and the PLO game actually gets good and we are playing real poker, 3 shorstackers sit in and don't leave when I kindly ask them to leave. Then when I at least ask them to buyin for the full amount so they don't kill our play, they just keep reloading to 20bbs after they bust...OR double up and run and leave me with a full table.

Playing shorstackers isn't hard, it isn't fun and it kills good games and just attracks more shorstackers. IMHO, I think the majority of shortstackers are MTT players that can't adapt to 100bb+ poker, as they are use to 20bb from MTTs and the push fold strategy that comes along with it. I'm not saying all shorstackers are this way, but I would bet way more than half of them for this to be the case. Back to cash games, if I wanted to play that 20bb game that will result in hands being push/fold on the flop I would simply play a MTT/STT. I have yet to play very high limits in PLO, so I haven't even played any shorstackers that can successfully apply a shorstack strategy to the games I've played, most if not all of the ones are horrible and just dump 10 or 20 bbs and leave, which would be fine by me except that for the time being, while they are sitting in, it turns into standard abc poker, where your just playing your cards and your position and in my eyes that is just not poker...at least cash game poker.


Aslo, [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Troll.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
I really couldn't care less if I have to take their money 25BB at a time. I still take their money, and they still have to reload to stay in. I actually understand how to play at different stack sizes, you see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear Mr. Wazz,

Would you care to impart some of your [insert adjective and/or noun indicating great wisdom]?

Is this the kind of play you are talking about?

OMAHA POT LIMIT ($1/$2)
2007/05/25

Table 'Ostara II' 6-max Seat
Seat 1: salchvz ($157.50 in chips)
Seat 3: all in C ($145.60 in chips)
Seat 4: metro moe ($100.70 in chips)
Seat 5: BRMAN888 ($37.85 in chips)
Seat 6: Trolleur ($222 in chips)

salchvz: posts small blind $1
all in C: posts big blind $2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Trolleur [5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
metro moe: raises $2 to $4
BRMAN888: calls $4
Trolleur: raises $8 to $12
folder723 has returned
salchvz: folds
all in C: calls $10
metro moe: calls $8
BRMAN888: raises $25.85 to $37.85 and is all-in
Trolleur: raises $100.70 to $138.55
all in C: folds
metro moe: calls $88.70 and is all-in

*** FLOP *** 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
*** TURN *** A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
*** RIVER *** K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
*** SHOW DOWN ***

metro moe mucks [T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
BRMAN888 mucks [Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]


Trolleur collected $125.70 from side pot
Trolleur collected $124.55 from main pot
with a flush, Jack high

Trolleur said, "lol dead money"

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]

So when I limp UTG as a shortstacker, the bully have to be in doubt what I have. The bully want to raise, but it is dangerous. He might also limp, which of course can be to my disadvantage, or maybe also advantage. So of course, the postflop play will still be an opportunity, it is mainly up to the big stack. If he raise, then it might be a push after him. If he really wants to play postflop, he have the choice to also limp. So the argument regarding post-flop play is not especially valid. The big difference is as I said, that the big bully can’t any longer be sure he can continue as before. New dimension is added.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sodom, I don't have a ton of hands on you, perhaps someone can post more. But from what I see you kind of play like an idiot shortstacker, and not at all about what you are talking about in your posts in this thread. You kind of just play the same in all positions.

And no "big stack" (read: normal stack) is going to care about you at a 6 max table. There is no "danger".


[image][/image]

[baztalkspoker]

Ok 'gentlemen', you know what they say talk is cheap and since Trolleur you are so up yourself, I'd like to see how good you really are.

So money where mouth is time. This 'pussy' here proposes a grudge match.

It'd be real interesting if we got all the major protagonists on this thread in it. Sodom, Wazz and me on one side. Trolleur,Scoot and one other on the other side.

If the others aren't interested that's fine, I'll play against one of you on my own, 6 seater or 10 seater is fine with me. Full-Tilt or Party. $1-$2 or $2-$4. I'll buy in for the full amount. You guys game or are you just all mouth?

[baztalkspoker]

oh almost forgot southerndog. It might have something to do with the fact that I get the feeling you are of little consequence, you could be the third guy on the 'all mouth' team. Let's see if you have the ballz for it!

[Troll_Inc]

I'll play if Sodom buys in full.

And what exactly will this prove?

I don't think this thread is about anyone being scared, it's about f'ing up the best cash game in the world.

[jomatty]

i always like a little e-drama and am up for a little challenge match, provided the stakes are reasonable. if there is a 3 on 3 match i would be interested in playing provided that everyone will act honorably and play hard against those that are on their "team". to answer trolls question as to what this would prove i cant speak for baz but i think it may prove that those who play short at times are not necessarily worse than those that always buy in deep (this may or not be proved regardless of results). and anyways it does not have to prove anything and just because it would not prove who the better player is does not mean that it would not be fun.

the problem in my mind is avoiding collusion if we play on "teams" and that is why i would suggest something like 1-2 PLO. anyways challenges are fun and im in if this comes together.

matty h