this ATs me molesta

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
i call

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL ! [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I am encouraged to see that you think that calling is best Miles. Any explanation from a very good player IMHO though ?

Anyway, I did some calculations (which I think are correct) and against 5 random hands, there would be about a 52% chance that none of your opponents had a K.

However, your opponents probably wont have random hands and so I think that raising to try to get the hand HU, will most likely result in your losing any equity edge that you may have had in a multiway pot.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
/don't ask me who i'm s'posed to be.../

[/ QUOTE ]
The correct answer is /si no me quieres, líbrame/.


[ QUOTE ]
Its interesting to learn that being 3-bet is far less common live than on-line.

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the stakes. 4/8 online has good players; 4/8 live has a bunch of donks: notice there were four! coldcallers in this hand — how many times have you seen that online at any table higher than .25/.50?


[ QUOTE ]
The 4x and gut-shot hands only seem to be a problem though, if our hand is best on the flop. We dont really mind them staying in if we are drawing do we ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Since it's 13-1 to us, if we call they'll be getting no less than 14-1, meaning it's going to be +EV for them to call; consequently, it will be -EV for us.


[ QUOTE ]
I suppose what I am asking is whether it is +EV for us to try to clean up our outs with what I suspect is probably something like the 2nd best hand on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
We don't really have any outs to "clean up" per se; the only ones we could possibly clean up is our A outs so QJ doesn't beat us, but QJ isn't going anywhere on this flop. Sometimes we raise not to clean up our outs, but to do something similar: to protect our hand by turning some of everyone else's outs into safe cards.


[ QUOTE ]
You are most likely behind in the hand. Yes sometimes raisng with a worse hand is correct. I don't think this is one of them. The only hands that will fold correctly are the ones we have dominated (Ax/Tx). QJ is not folding and even gutshots will be getting 8:1 minimum enough to see a turn card with implieds.

[/ QUOTE ]
This assumes that the rest of the players are smart. Yeah, perhaps one of them will call any amount of bets to hit their inside straight, no matter how stupid it is, but you have to get into their heads a little. Facing one bet is a lot different to them than a bet and a raise; they will frequently fold a gutshot if they know they have to call two bets now with the added possibility of having to call one or two more if the donker three-bets and we cap (not saying we would, of course, just that to them it's a possibility).

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Since it's 13-1 to us, if we call they'll be getting no less than 14-1, meaning it's going to be +EV for them to call; consequently, it will be -EV for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not automatically true in multiway pots, especially when:

[ QUOTE ]
We don't really have any outs to "clean up" per se

[/ QUOTE ]

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
raise or call

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. Folding is retarded. I'd raise.

Rob

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Since it's 13-1 to us, if we call they'll be getting no less than 14-1, meaning it's going to be +EV for them to call; consequently, it will be -EV for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not automatically true in multiway pots, especially when:

[ QUOTE ]
We don't really have any outs to "clean up" per se

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, who loses EV?

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Since it's 13-1 to us, if we call they'll be getting no less than 14-1, meaning it's going to be +EV for them to call; consequently, it will be -EV for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not automatically true in multiway pots, especially when:

[ QUOTE ]
We don't really have any outs to "clean up" per se

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, who loses EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some combination of the rest of your opponents.

For a much more simplified example, imagine a 30BB pot on the turn where you have 2 opponents. The board is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you have 99, and the nut flush bets into you. If your other opponent has 44, an overcall is +EV for him yet you absolutely want him to make it.

[marchron]

Okay, enough metagame. I still like a raise to chase out AQ and J9 because if a Q falls on the turn and they're still around, we're drawing dead to win. If they call a raise it's to their detriment, and regardless of whether or not it's to our benefit EV-wise, it's still nice if they fold live draws.