KK on dry flop

[adanthar]

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I think he has QQ-TT/88 here at least as often as he has 99/66/33.. Couldn't his raise be an attempt to shut out the rest of the field with a vulnerable overpair, particularly since everybody thinks everybody always c-bets these days?

[/ QUOTE ]

so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[True]

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[ QUOTE ]
I push now because they don't fold A9 but might on certain turns.

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Pushing is wayyyyyyy worst than calling if you think villian has A9. Actually, even if he's showing A9, shoving is sooo bad, you are over reprsentin your hand right at that moment.

Barrin6
shoving ain't goot

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If you KNEW villain had A9 then shoving is prob better than calling but w/e

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

a better example is he called with 88 trying to hit a set but the flop is so dry that he wants to protect his hand or get information or something. people are stupid and do stupid things like this all the time.

barrin, if he flips over A9 i dont see how calling > shoving.

[minnesotasam]

[ QUOTE ]
so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never seen this? Really?

Not everyone that plays MSNL 3-bets like its their job PF a la 2+2. Many people will smooth call those raises with QQ- because they "want to see if an ace or king flops so they can get out cheap." Is it optimal play? No, not usually, but it still happens. I'm not saying he can't have a set here, but I wouldn't be stunned if an unknown felted TT here either. If his impression is that hero will c-bet into a four player field with an AK that misses, then raising JJ might make a lot of sense to him. People love overpairs.

Just because people don't repop PF with TT-QQ doesn't mean they're playing it exclusively for set value and certainly doesn't mean that they are all passive postflop on a dry board. They "don't want to build a big pot on a coinflip" or whatever.

Am I totally off base here? Let me know if I am.

[FionnMac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so he:

1)just calls, say, JJ UTG+1, likely fearing your UTG range;
2)raises your cbet into 3 people on a 9 high board because now he loves his hand vs your range a lot more.

okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never seen this? Really?

Not everyone that plays MSNL 3-bets like its their job PF a la 2+2. Many people will smooth call those raises with QQ- because they "want to see if an ace or king flops so they can get out cheap." Is it optimal play? No, not usually, but it still happens. I'm not saying he can't have a set here, but I wouldn't be stunned if an unknown felted TT here either. If his impression is that hero will c-bet into a four player field with an AK that misses, then raising JJ might make a lot of sense to him. People love overpairs.

Just because people don't repop PF with TT-QQ doesn't mean they're playing it exclusively for set value and certainly doesn't mean that they are all passive postflop on a dry board. They "don't want to build a big pot on a coinflip" or whatever.

Am I totally off base here? Let me know if I am.

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i don't think you're off base at all, people assume that other players are 2+2'er way too often. I still think it's a fold though

[psuasskicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Many people will smooth call those raises with QQ- because they "want to see if an ace or king flops so they can get out cheap." Is it optimal play? No, not usually, but it still happens.

Just because people don't repop PF with TT-QQ doesn't mean they're playing it exclusively for set value and certainly doesn't mean that they are all passive postflop on a dry board. They "don't want to build a big pot on a coinflip" or whatever.

Am I totally off base here? Let me know if I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're off-base that it happens but your why is way screwed up...

Basically OP has a bunch of people all calling him an idiot if he doesn't fold, call, or shove. After that, they're all calling each other idiots for advocating whichever of the two they're not advocating.

As such, I guess I'll be the first (?) to say "Who cares what you do, it's probably about as EV neutral as anything else you do, so flip a coin and pick one", and run for my flame retardant suit since I'm about to get it from all three...

- C -

[Jinx]

at first i thought shove, then thinking about it it's probably fold. But [censored], who knows. he's unknown so he can have lots of weird crap. However, i don't see how call is even an option unless you intend on folding one of the later streets.

[ArturiusX]

I can't believe people think 2 players to act behind is such a deciding factor in this being a fold.

Maybe I play with too many unknown donkeys.

[Isura]

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shove

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[Taylor Caby]

75% shove 25% call with plan to get it in on most turns, given this is an unknown.

unless it was your first hand at the table, you should be able to have a better read on the villain and i would have to know his stats to give you better advice. some players only do this when they have the goods (set) and some do it with draws/any pair/random/top pair just to see where they stand and try to take pot down.

there are some players that I will call once and then fold to because they would never get AI with A9 or TT or something, but for the most part, you have to like your hand here.

there shouldn't be one correct play as it is almost never correct to play a hand the same way all the time so for people who just say shove, call, or fold, you shoudl really think about mixing up your play and expanding your game.

tc

edit: something i shoudl stress is you should know more about villain. but for 1 BI i'm not folding KK here to an unknown, it's just not good poker given you are splashing around at least a little bit.

there are lots of players that i dont even think twice about folding to, just not unknowns for one buyin.