Agreement reached among Palestinian factions

[Mickey Brausch]

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I'm asking you to simply acknowledge that Palestinian promises towards peace carry no weight (based on past history). The reason I stress this, is because earlier in the thread you seemed to be making it sound as if Israel was being unreasonable by not giving credence to Palestinian assurances. But it is not unreasonable at all to disbelieve, given past performance.

[/ QUOTE ]We are saying the same thing inasmuch as Israel being reluctant and weary of believing that the Palestinians will deliver when they (the Palestinians) promise they will annihilate the terrorists among their ranks. <u>I agree</u> that this is the case, yes.

But can we stop there and pretend that's all there is to it ?

If I tie your arms behind your back and, under threat of never releasing you, I ask you to promise you will cook dinner, you might very well promise that! After all, what are your options? Who knows, you might manage somehow to cook dinner with your arms tied. And the alternative is worse - remaining tied up for ever.

But I would be very correct NOT TO BELIEVE YOU.

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It is obvious the Palestinian leadership is in a double-bind. But so too is Israel in a double-bind since Israel gets attacked further by militants every time Israel gives up any land.

[/ QUOTE ]You are talking about the safety of a few individuals but the important, the main consideration of the Israeli leadership is the safety of the state of Israel. And the safety of the state of Israel is not in any serious kind of danger.

Israel has nothing to fear from its neighbors, i.e. Syria which has not even the USSR anymore to protect it, if push comes to shove, Jordan which is effectively at peace with Israel (although Jordanians are mostly weary of this state of affairs), Lebanon where despite Hezbollah's attacks there is no significant threat to Israel's security, and Egypt where all is quiet on the western front. Israel has more to fear from distant countries such as Iran or Pakistan, but their leaders will have to go collectively crazy first. (I know, I know. But they are far from that kind of crazy.)

So what kind of "double bind" is Israel facing? Israel gave up Gaza in order to proceed unimpeded towards the effective annexation of the West Bank. That was the whole point.

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I believe discussions work best if points are established and agreed upon wherever possible before proceeding much further.

[/ QUOTE ] As I said, from its own point of view, Israel behaves impeccably towards achieving its strategic objectives. To the extent that we feel no moral revulsion against this state of affairs (a revuslion equal to what we feel when the Palestinians kill Israeli women and children at a bus stop) and as long as Israel faces no outside pressure to change course, the course will not change. And after forty or fifty years, how many people are gonna remember the plight and the lives of a few hundred thousand Palestinians? Not many.

Mickey Brausch

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm asking you to simply acknowledge that Palestinian promises towards peace carry no weight (based on past history). The reason I stress this, is because earlier in the thread you seemed to be making it sound as if Israel was being unreasonable by not giving credence to Palestinian assurances. But it is not unreasonable at all to disbelieve, given past performance.

[/ QUOTE ]We are saying the same thing inasmuch as Israel being reluctant and weary of believing that the Palestinians will deliver when they (the Palestinians) promise they will annihilate the terrorists among their ranks. <u>I agree</u> that this is the case, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

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But can we stop there and pretend that's all there is to it ?

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Of course that's not all there is to it.


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[ QUOTE ]
It is obvious the Palestinian leadership is in a double-bind. But so too is Israel in a double-bind since Israel gets attacked further by militants every time Israel gives up any land.

[/ QUOTE ]You are talking about the safety of a few individuals but the important, the main consideration of the Israeli leadership is the safety of the state of Israel. And the safety of the state of Israel is not in any serious kind of danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I agree with that; yet the safety of the Israeli public-at-large is continually endangered by deranged suicide bombers.

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Israel has nothing to fear from its neighbors, i.e. Syria which has not even the USSR anymore to protect it, if push comes to shove, Jordan which is effectively at peace with Israel (although Jordanians are mostly weary of this state of affairs), Lebanon where despite Hezbollah's attacks there is no significant threat to Israel's security, and Egypt where all is quiet on the western front. Israel has more to fear from distant countries such as Iran or Pakistan, but their leaders will have to go collectively crazy first. (I know, I know. But they are far from that kind of crazy.)

So what kind of "double bind" is Israel facing? Israel gave up Gaza in order to proceed unimpeded towards the effective annexation of the West Bank. That was the whole point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe "double-bind" isn't exactly the best phrase, but Israel is in the position of being subjected to rocket attacks and suicide bombings whenever it gives up land. It's almost like the Palestinian militants take the return of land to be a green light to attack ASAP. So the Israeli public-at-large gets attacked then from a closer vantage point. Thus Israel has a Palestinian-provided disincentive to give up any land, in addition to any other incentives Israel may already have in that direction.

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I believe discussions work best if points are established and agreed upon wherever possible before proceeding much further.

[/ QUOTE ] As I said, from its own point of view, Israel behaves impeccably towards achieving its strategic objectives.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested in hearing not only the theory for this but also some factual basis. I'm not saying I disbelieve it.

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To the extent that we feel no moral revulsion against this state of affairs (a revuslion equal to what we feel when the Palestinians kill Israeli women and children at a bus stop) and as long as Israel faces no outside pressure to change course, the course will not change.

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Probably the course will not change much. And Israel will always have a ready-made excuse not to change given that Palestinians keep attacking the Israeli public-at-large.

This raises another question: is it possible that the Palestinians or the Palestinian leadership also have something to gain by maintaining the status quo?

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And after forty or fifty years, how many people are gonna remember the plight and the lives of a few hundred thousand Palestinians? Not many.

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I don't know; it's been 40 or 50 years already and the world seems more aware of it than 40 or 50 years ago. I guess we'll wait and see.