$4/180 Challenge - Tonight @ 8:00 pm - Page 4

KingOtter · #31 01-17-2007, 03:29 AM

Sorry I missed this tonight.. around 7:30 I couldn't get in to the forums, and tried to IM but didn't get an answer that I saw, so decided to go watch a movie and get in a fight with my wife instead.

yay

Supwithbates · #32 01-17-2007, 06:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would imagine part of it is to play tight early, remember that they will pretty much call with anything and everything, including any AX hand. Don't bluff at pots early on. limpers in the first level at least will still call a 4x bb raise with nothing.

You really don't see good players for the most part until you get down to the 30s.

There is a few more things that I could say, but it's about 1am and i have work in the morning.. more later.

[/ QUOTE ]
This advice doesn't make sense. If they limpers are calling with nothing, then we should be widening our own ranges to better exploit their loose tendencies.

I used to follow this advice; play tight early on, wait for the donks to double you up when they run their nothing into your nuts. This is easier said than done. Every single tournament that I played in would go something like this: I fold every hand except for monsters, waiting for something to double up off. I'd limp low pocket pairs for setmining, but that generally won't happen very often in the limited deepstack play afforded by the fast blind structures. So I'd wait for QQ and raise it, only to get 3 callers, one of which would lead the Axx board, I'd have to fold. So I'd wait another level, and all the sudden I have 1100 chips at 50/100 and everyone else outchips me 4:1. People always say that M matters more than Q; this is not true. Your relative stack to others at the table allows you to play postflop poker effectively. Having the bigstack affords additional fold equity and allows you to bully the shorter stacks by widening your range profitably.

I got tired of this tight, mechanical form of tourney play. If I got lucky and hit a rush of cards that got action and held up, I'd do well. If not, I'd bust out early and never accumulate chips. I decided to change my strategy. With my new strategy I'm running a 100% ROI in the 4/180s and have made 6 final tables in 55 attempts (I still haven't even won one of these tourneys yet).

A little bit of advice for the 4/180 tournaments that I've found to be useful:
1) There is fold equity. Utilize it. This doesn't mean you should bluff, but it does mean that you should play legitimate hands very aggressively to force the mistake. This includes semibluff-stealing with as little as a gutshot if your opponents are acting weak (make sure they're not the tricky type, or you'll be check/raised and won't get your free card). This means semibluff restealing against aggressive opponents that are trying to steal your blinds or even your button. Early on, most players aren't going to lay down any draw or any pair, so use that to your advantage. This doesn't mean that you can't induce a fold, it just means that you can't get them to fold a hand they hit a piece of. The trick is to steal when they don't hit, for which the delayed c-bet is often useful (if you missed too).
2) Play loose, play postflop I used to get pissed off when people "didn't respect my raises." I'd sit around in these tourneys and wait for pocket aces, and when I finally got them I'd get 5 callers and ONE of them would outdraw me on the flop, where I obviously had no choice at that point but to go broke. The flaw in this thinking is that it allows preflop hand selection to trump all other poker thinking, most notably implied and reverse implied odds. Deepstacked, 33 is very profitable to play when you know your opponent has AA. The reason is that your opponent will often be willing to go broke with one pair, whereas you can easily toss your hand unimproved. Take advantage of this, but not just by set mining. Play lots of hands, including suited connectors, suited gappers, unsuited connectors, and even sometimes high suited cards like K5s at some weak tables. Not every villain in the 4/180s is going to limp/call with K7o and then stack off with the pair of kings; target those that do with top pair type hands, and target those that play more solid values with lower disguised hands.

3) Exploit passivity I never used to know how to do this. When someone checks when they miss but also check when they hit, how do you know when it's safe to c-bet your AJo whiffed? The answer: you don't. Not on the flop anyways. If you raise AJo from the cutoff and both blinds call, you don't HAVE to be cbetting the flop even in position very often at all; in fact, you only should be if the blinds are going to lead when they hit. In position headsup I'll c-bet much more often, but out of position headsup I might c-bet less than half the time missed.

So if c-betting won't exploit passivity, what will? The answer is to open up your range. Valuebet the callingstations with TPGK, you'll be ahead more often than not. You also don't have to raise preflop to c-bet. Here's one hand that I played recently that highlights how to exploit passivity. In this case, I was forced into the hand from the big blind, but for the case of argument suppose I limped behind the other limpers on the button (a play I'd support if the other limpers had bigger stacks).
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t4736)
MP2 (t1095)
MP3 (t3551)
CO (t1058)
Button (t2440)
SB (t2761)
Hero (t9295)
UTG (t5856)
UTG+1 (t2190)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t200, 3 folds, CO calls t200, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t800) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t800, UTG+1 raises to t1990, CO calls t858 (All-In), SB folds, Hero calls t1190.

Turn: (t5638) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t5638) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t5638

Results in white below: 
Hero has 7c 4c (straight, eight high).
UTG+1 has Ad As (two pair, aces and fives).
CO has Qh Qc (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins t5638. 

Most of these villains are trying to trap with their big hands; the key is to not go broke in these limped pots with one pair. Betting the flop with top pair is fine, but slow down if you get called in most instances, and exercise pot control. The fact that these players are giving you a cheap look at a flop that they are willing to go broke on 99% of the time is too good an opportunity to pass up. Some players will even trap with AK, and then can't lay it down postflop when it misses, let alone when they flop TPTK.

Cliffsnotes for the TL;DR crowd:
Play loose early on, but avoid playing big pots with one pair. Pot control is key. When you do flop a monster, bet it, don't bother getting tricky against most opponents; most will call 3/4 to full potsize bets with weak holdings.
Use common sense in preflop hand selection; 57s can be powerful, A7o is asking to lose money. Steal unclaimed pots postflop in position, you don't have to raise preflop to do this. Don't bluff, but do semibluff under the right conditions. Play aggressively, try to force your opponent to make a mistake (but remain realistic as to the strength of your own hand at the same time). Pay attention to pot odds and stack sizes before deciding on a course of action to ensure you're not overestimating implied odds, but in general you can assume that the odds are there to get paid off if you hit.

Ontario_Tory · #33 01-17-2007, 09:52 AM

Final results are in, money shipped...

Results:
isnoplace=isnoplace: 6, 24, 11, 20=47 points (Done)
xxx=DontMessTX: 1, 66, 149, 94=45.5 points (Done)
YANS24=Mikeylos: 29, 20, 88, 48=20 points (Done)
Ontario_Tory=Ontario_Tory: 30, 175, 10, 89=19 points (Done)
bucktotal=bucktotal: 21, 77, 135, 39=15.5 points (Done)
valsuvious=stalker1121: 35, 37, 116, 76=14 points (Done)
mypc8mymoney=mypc8mymoney: 71, 91, 42, 64=12 points (Done)
Kelsey72=Kelsey72: 38, 39, 160, 125=10.5 points (Done)
markdeeznutz=markder: 87, 94, 91, 157=6 points (Done)
Jeff76=SlyJeff: 99, 95, 154, 145=4.5 points (Done)

& an interesting lesson to everybody - s0ballin had a power failure, so he sat out for the first hour. Shortstacked in all four, he asked for a refund of his $10... I said sure, sent him his money back... He ended up finishing 10th, 46th, 69th and 2nd, good for 54 points and what would have been the win... So next time, stick it out regardless. You never know what may happen.

See ya'll next week...

OT

anotherFliplost · #34 01-17-2007, 11:50 AM

Sorry I missed this. With 2+2 down, I wasn't sure if the challenge was running. I saw some of the usual suspects at the first 4/180, so I suspected you guys had organized through AIM or something, but I wasn't 100% sure. Anyway, given the presence of some of you at the 4/180s and my own uncertainty about the challenge, I decided to play with the fishies instead at a couple of 10/180s and a 5ament. Not as much fun, but more profitable. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Congrats, isnoplace.

Valsuvious · #35 01-17-2007, 01:41 PM

Supwithbates,

I like your post, it describes a bunch of things I was referring to earlier.

When I said play tight early, I meant don't raise from early position with something like A10 and expect to take down the pot. I tend to limp with my lower pocket pairs at this stage, especially in the first level. Players in the first few levels are normally calling stations, and a lot will risk it all with nothing.

I tend to play pretty much how you described, the later in I get, the more raising I do. Sometimes, if I see a few have limped in front of me, and I'm sitting with AJ in the cutoff, I'll just fold it, instead of getting involved in a pot where it's likely that I could be dominated. If no one has limped, or if only maybe one has limped, then I might stick in a raise there to see where I'm at. This is a good way to figure out if that person in MP limped with a high pair. If they call your bet and then stick in a big bet on the flop, good chance that they have a big pair.

One thing that needs to be addressed of course is that even with a big stack, don't get too greedy. I have done that the last two days, taking the chip lead spot early (yesterday in the 1st one I had 14k chips about 10 min before break, and the day before with 50 people left I was up around 27k). However, both of these times I stayed in hands that I shouldn't have, and ended up tossing most of my stack. Neither of the two I placed, because I attempted to take on the role of bully and thought that I had the chips to do that with. Just be smart with it. Same reason that you almost never see the person with the overall chip lead at the end of the first day of a tournament go on to win it (Dmitri Nobles anyone?)

Two days ago with about 35 left in a 4/180, I saw JJ from the cutoff, so I reraised over an early raiser. At the time I was CL and he was the 6th stack or so. He immediately reraised me back about double what I put in. At this time, I should have known he had something that he really liked. In my head, I was screaming that he had AA or KK. However, my fingers just wouldn't accept this and I immediately went all in. This player was solid, showing down strong hands and had been chipping away at pots here and there. So, of course when he called the allin, he showed AA and I lost about 4/7 of my stack. A few hands later a not so desperate shorter stack went all in utg and it was folded around to me in the bb. I called with 66 and he turned over 1010. Now suddenly I'm the short stack on lifesupport. It was that first hand when my chips dictated my play more than what I knew the situation told me.

And fast forward to last night, I built my stack up to 14k early with some good luck and cards. About 10 min to go before the first break I saw A10 in the bb. Someone with 3k chips raised allin preflop and it was folded around to me. I guess I was hoping for a race, but the more I thought about it after that hand, I realized that he got what he wanted. He thought possibly the big stack at the table would call his raise and if I hit I would attempt to take the pot down. He figured my range of cards was prob larger since I was the table leader by a good 8k chips. He raised all in, with the blinds at something like 75/150 and of course, me being the dumb one, I called with my A10 and ran into his AK. With my now 10k chips, I ran into about a 30 min dry spell and only took down a couple of small blind pots, and leading to the hand that I went out on against Don'tMessTx's 34o from UTG.

Just like Supwithbates said, exploit passivity. It's easy to chip away at pots that people just don't seem to want anything to do with. This involves players who are in the blinds and just go to see the flop. This involves players who raise preflop, see the flop and then seem disinterested in raising or anything else. Something that Negraneu is great at is the 4th street bluff. This involves calling the flop bet with the intention of bluffing on the turn. This is very effective cause if you just flat call a bet on the flop (often it's just a continuation bet from the original raiser), then often they will just fold, figuring that either the 4th street helped you, or you hit something on the flop over their nothing. Basically, you are just representing that you got a piece of the board and you are willing to do whatever. If an original raiser checks the flop back to you and then cold calls a bet on the flop, be careful, especially in the 4/180s this typically means they hit the flop hard and really like their hand. I find myself unintentionally raising preflop and then if I hit a set, I'll check hoping to trap someone. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I read it somewhere, but it mentioned that even if you hit a set, you should still bet. This keeps your opponents guessing. I would expect my opponent to check if he hit something big in hopes that I'll raise so that he can check raise me at some point.

As far as when you get down to about 30, just need to pick your spots. Take advantage of limpers in this, sometimes you'll run into someone softplaying their big pair but nothing you can do about it. This is the time when you want to push whatever you get, take down the blinds at least once or twice an orbit, and chip away at those medium stacks. Usually by the time that I make the money, I'm normally at about the 10th stack or so, just from stealing blinds during that period.

On a side note supwithbates, I'm sitting at about 110% roi for the last 60 days, but well over 150% for the last 30 days. My FTs that I've made, I've finished 1stx4, 3rdx1, 4thx1,6thx1 and 9thx1.

If this is all jumbled together I'm sorry, it's lunchtime here at work and I'm attempting to write this up before everyone gets back.

Jeff76 · #36 01-17-2007, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff76=SlyJeff: 99, 95, 154, 145=4.5 points (Done)

[/ QUOTE ]Ship it. This is what happens when you lose AK<A8, are slowrolled by made hands when you have two pair (and aren't deep enough to get away), and just start playing random trash in the last tournament because you don't care anymore.

Don't know if I should be upset about the last one, though, where I raised over a limper with 63s, flopped trips and then lost to a turned 4s full. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].