ATs fishmax playalong - Page 4

bozlax · #31 01-08-2007, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
there is no value in betting this turn.

Bizzuzz

[/ QUOTE ]

I agrizzuzz. Unfortunately, I was over-counting my outs at the time I played the hand (I was distracted, and was thinking OESD instead of gutty, and with the OESD there would be value), so now we come to the part of the hand where I obey my own Rule of Playalongs and [censored] the bed:

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Brian is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB raises, Brian calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, Brian calls, UTG raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, Brian 3-bets, UTG caps, Button folds, SB calls, Brian calls.

Turn: (12 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Brian bets, UTG raises, SB calls, Brian ?

Now I also concur that if I bet this turn, I should 3-bet if given the opportunity, but I'd like to hear arguments for/against.

aK13 · #32 01-08-2007, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Now I also concur that if I bet this turn, I should 3-bet if given the opportunity, but I'd like to hear arguments for/against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against: Unlikely UTG caps the flop and folds to a 3bet on the turn. Even if he just has overaggro AQ, he won't make a fold that he should if you 3bet.

VickreyAuction · #33 01-08-2007, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now I also concur that if I bet this turn, I should 3-bet if given the opportunity

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I don't see how bet/3betting a big draw on the turn can be better than check/calling. I also don't see how
betting with a better draw would be good.

Edit: Barring an extreme read.

tyler_cracker · #34 01-08-2007, 11:20 PM

A-high is no good and at least one of these guys is showing down. we do not have enough outs to raise for value. ergo call. just because we made a mistake and lead the turn doesn't mean we have to start spewing.

Xhad · #35 01-08-2007, 11:25 PM

Easy call on the turn. You're never winning UI and you're probably only winning if you make the nuts at this point.

Shillx · #36 01-08-2007, 11:26 PM

C/c the turn and call the raise

bozlax · #37 01-08-2007, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A-high is no good and at least one of these guys is showing down. we do not have enough outs to raise for value. ergo call. just because we made a mistake and lead the turn doesn't mean we have to start spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless 3-betting and calling the cap will hide your hand well enough to increase your implieds on the river. Basically we need to pick up the same number of bets we put in on the turn on the river to make bet/3-bet a value proposition. I think if your Villans read your action on the turn as a made hand, and they're confident enough in their hands to go 3-4 bets on the turn, they're going to put 3-4 more in on the river between them. That's my point.

At any rate, the rest of the hand is beat, I called the turn raise, the river was a blank and I folded. Whoo-hoo.

Edit: Here's the whole HH. It was a fun hand.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Brian is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB raises, Brian calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, Brian calls, UTG raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, Brian 3-bets, UTG caps, Button folds, SB calls, Brian calls.

Turn: (12 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Brian bets, UTG raises, SB calls, Brian calls.

River: (18 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Brian checks, UTG bets, SB calls, Brian folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB

tyler_cracker · #38 01-08-2007, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless 3-betting and calling the cap will hide your hand well enough to increase your implieds on the river. Basically we need to pick up the same number of bets we put in on the turn on the river to make bet/3-bet a value proposition. I think if your Villans read your action on the turn as a made hand, and they're confident enough in their hands to go 3-4 bets on the turn, they're going to put 3-4 more in on the river between them. That's my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an ambitious gambit and requires quite a parlay (your card hits && you get crazy action && you wouldn't have gotten that crazy action without spending all that money on the turn).

At the very least, wait until you have a read. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Buzz-cp · #39 01-09-2007, 12:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an ambitious gambit and requires quite a parlay (your card hits && you get crazy action && you wouldn't have gotten that crazy action without spending all that money on the turn).

At the very least, wait until you have a read. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

coder geek

bozlax · #40 01-09-2007, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an ambitious gambit and requires quite a parlay (your card hits && you get crazy action && you wouldn't have gotten that crazy action without spending all that money on the turn).

At the very least, wait until you have a read. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to think a bit more on this...I actually just came up with that off the cuff while trying to figure out a justification. My initial thinking, tho, is that this is pretty good, in fact. Think about a hand reading exercise where a Villan raises a two-tone or straightish flop and then continues his aggression on a non-flush, non-straight turn; how many times are you going to put him on the draw when it does hit on the river? Or, at least when he donkbets the river against your made hand?

I've also seen a ton of fishmax Villans that will go nuts with any piece against the new-fish at the table in an effort to "establish control" over the opponent.

I dunno. This is going to take some more thinking.