Pooh-Bah Post: Playing Junk From Late Position

[SwedishMedusah]

You make no sense.

[tannenj]

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8out draw isnt a big draw

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A “big draw,” for the purpose of this article, is just a draw that you’re willing to felt on the flop.

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I’m calling this a “big draw” and including it in the first category of hands because against this villain, you’re willing to reraise all in with it after he check-raises your continuation bet.

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notice that in one instance, i called the oesd a "big draw" and in one instance i called it a "mediocre draw" and put it in the last category of hands. according to the article, the same draw can be both a "big draw" and a "mediocre draw" depending on the situation. semantics, really, but i think if you're willing to shove with it, it's reasonable to consider it in the same light as a legitimate "big draw" like an oesfd, a flush draw with a gutshot and an overcard, etc.

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id call the river w/ J4 on the Q Q J 3 3 board

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carnivalhobo said he'd call too when i showed him the article, and now i see that others are agreeing. it seems that this might be a call, or at least much closer to a call than i initially thought.

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45 vs the tight player on the 9 7 6 x board is a fold. he's betting close to pot, an 8 wont pay you off (or makes yo usecond best vs TT) and we wont be able to bluff villain given our read. time to pitch it.

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d'oh! i didn't mean to make the turn such a bad card; it was supposed to be brick. if i could create the hand over, i'd give hero 65 instead of 54, and make the board [872][3].

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the last hand J9 is an auto flop bet there

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given the read, i don't think i agree.

[MikeyPatriot]

Marvelous post, good sir.

[Ben86]

Very helpful post, thanks a lot.

[FletchJr.]

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When To Do It?

1. Use PT stats:

If you’re on the button, use the statistics “Folds BB to steal” and “Folds SB to steal” to evaluate the preflop tendencies of the players in the blinds.

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Great Article,

Could you throw out some numbers or examples,

I'm a little lost as to when it is actually correct to get carried away with real ugly hands. I do open a lot, and a hand like j9s is a regular raise on the button for me. But i want to know when i should push it, and raise a 79o or Q8o when 1st in on the button. Or even when a player is so tight crossing the line(for me anyways) and raising 46o (pratically any 2) on the button becomes correct.


Also, just curious,

what do you run at 6-max, stat wise?

Personally, I'm at about 21/15 or so, and i want to play more hands and take advantage of smaller edges more to increase my bb/100. At about 100k hands, I'm only doing about 3/100bb. I think with enough effort i should at least be able to double that.

[tannenj]

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Could you throw out some numbers or examples,

I'm a little lost as to when it is actually correct to get carried away with real ugly hands. I do open a lot, and a hand like j9s is a regular raise on the button for me. But i want to know when i should push it, and raise a 79o or Q8o when 1st in on the button. Or even when a player is so tight crossing the line(for me anyways) and raising 46o (pratically any 2) on the button becomes correct.

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this answer is kind of a copout, but if i had specific guidelines or formulas, i would've included them in the OP.

i will say that if there's a big fish in the blinds and it's folded to me on the button, i'm raising lots and lots of hands -- more than half of the hands i'm dealt, probably, because i want to play pots with the fish. terrible villains and position is a combination good enough to overcome all but the worst starting hands (and maybe even those too, heh).

of course, if there's a thinking player in the other blind, he'll realize i'm trying to isolate, reraise more liberally, and cause me to slow down (or play preflop roulette and 4bet, heh), but that's getting off-topic i guess.

but yeah, it really depends. if there are two 10/5 nits in the blinds who only think on one level and only play the top few hands, i'd be inclined to raise 100% of the time it got folded to me on the button, because why not? they're almost never going to stop me from taking the free $3, and if they adjust, i took them out of their comfort zone and made them play my game.

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what do you run at 6-max, stat wise?

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for a while, i was 25/20, then 22/18, then 24/21, etc. recently i've been trying the nit thing and have been running at about 18/15. of course, calling someone like me a nit is funny, because while i'm no longer raising stuff like 54s under the gun, i'm still popping it from the button sometimes with hands like 42o and then following up with two barrels.

it's really a postflop game.

[74o_Clownsuit]

Bump.

Great stuff in here and this needs to be added to the master sticky imo.

[DaveRockNo20]

this thread is awesome! I'll read it and read it again!!!

[wrkingtobegreat]

One of the best posts I've ever read. tannenj, your my new hero.

[5thStreetHog]

A couple people picked out a few spots that they had different thoughts on,thats inevitable.Overall,great post,very well thought out and written.The effort was appreciated,it was fun to read.Thanks tannenj,well done.