Is This Cheating?

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it cheating to grab someone's cards and look at them while they are turned around ordering a drink?

Yes. Viewing someone's cards is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if they're reckless with them, holding them while leaning back rather then leaving them on the table?

Thats essentially what they're doing by wearing sunglasses that reflect light in this manner. Their own ignorance is not an excuse.

[Deorum]

[ QUOTE ]
I see cards from the other players' hands every single time I play. And many times over, and in many ways. They pull them up to look at them. They pitch them toward the muck 18 to 24 inches off the felt. They roll them toward the muck. The dealers have their moves, perfected in hours of boredom, that show the cards. If I couldn't see cards I'd be lost.

Tells are not even close to being cheating.

I think it's a very fine line to start defining ANYTHING in poker as cheating. Generally, I would say that if you don't like the way the other players are playing, don't sit down (or if you are sitting down, get up). But don't layer any morality on it. Those players are trying to take your money through a structured game in which everybody involved understands and agrees upon the rules and conditions of that game, same as you are trying to take theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. Somehow, though, it now seems broken.

[Luisgallo]

Protecting your cards is an obvious part of the game, this in every cards game, not being able of doing so is not other players' problem.
On the second issue: I see no difference than any other body tells.

[leaponthis]

No to both. Both are mistakes made by opponents. Taking advantage of mistakes made by your opponent whether intentional or not is not cheating. How you feel about using information gained in these ways is a personal moral issue that you must deal with in your own way. How you feel about using this type of information speaks volumes of your character. Personally I would use the information I obtained in this manner but would tell my opponent that I could see his cards in his glasses after the hand was over. The vein thing is another issue. This type of information is not 100% reliable and might even be used as misinformation by my oponent. It is an indication of what my opponent might have but does not precisely define his hand. I keep the vein thing to myself.

leaponthis

[inferno]

Poker should be a honest game and if someone is flashing his cards or if you can see his cards you should point that out to him. Its allot more fun that way

[1-Lucky-SOB]

[ QUOTE ]
Protecting your cards is an obvious part of the game, this in every cards game, not being able of doing so is not other players' problem.
On the second issue: I see no difference than any other body tells.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I was thinking while veiwing this thread. It's up to the player to protect his own hand.

The player with parkinson's, this is another realm entirely different, looking at this players cards would be chicken****, IMO.
These gentlemen usually come into the game for the social aspect, and are generally contributers. They play because it may be one of the things they truly enjoy in life, that they can still do, and keeps them young.
Anybody, that has spent hours upon hours in a cardroom has faced this dilemma before.
How they handled it, says alot about their character and integrity.
This is the Gentlemans aspect of the game one of the other posters mentioned.


Now, if someone of sound mind and body, is sitting next to me and flashes their cards accidently.
The first time I will tell them politely and discretely, after that, they are just flashed cards, that a player who is paying atttention can use as information in the decision making processes.
Would I try to get a seat change next to this player, I doubt it. But, it would depend on many other factors. ( like is he a maniac, a prick, etc. )


-1

[1-Lucky-SOB]

Would I actively seek out a BJ dealer who sometimes flashed their holecard, YES.

Does the casino see this as cheating, YES.


-1

[Luisgallo]

In this respect I would like David's opinion on a weird European poker rule:
you can lie as much as you like about your cards but if you disclose them (ie you have got aces and you declare it before somebody's else action) the hand is invalid.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
So if he has Parkinson's disease and sometimes exposes them to seat 3,its OK to look? Is it OK to move to seat 3 for that purpose. What about lowering your chair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, those are also OK assuming the player's mental capacity is sane enough to be aware of these things. If I were an opponent who saw you move to seat 3, I might tell the guy about the card exposure. Even with Parkinson's he should be able to make some sort of adjustment if he wants to.

The cutoff point for cheating vs. not cheating is deliberately moving your head to a place outside what can be considered your space, or using any sort of device that you yourself bring or put into a certain position for the purpose of seeing someone's cards.

[iggymcfly]

Definitely not cheating if someone allows you to see their cards. IMO, once the player gets the cards, it's his (or her) responsibility to keep other players from seeing them. If they're carelessly exposed through dealing, that's different, and you should probably make the table aware that the cards were exposed as you gained an unfair advantage.

As for the Parkinson's case, it's still not cheating. Covering cards is a part of the game that he's not proficient at, just like making reads based on physical tells might be tough for a blind man. I personally wouldn't try to look at his cards out of empathy for his situation, but if I accidentally glimpsed them, I'd use the information, and if someone was discovered to have won a pot by looking at them intentionally, it would be his to keep since he did not violate the rules.